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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2017 10:48:01 GMT
Does that mean that some people actually want to suffer, consciously? Why and what for would they want to suffer, other than taking it as a just punishment for what ever they have done (or not done) as being well deserved and therefore don't suffer from seemingly suffering, but from being kept away from rightfully suffering? In other words: If one would like to commit suicide that implies, by definition, that one suffers so much that life becomes unbearable and enduring to live nevertheless is then some kind of punishment. The suffering then is wanted not unwanted. (Maybe Sisyphus was such a case. That myth that might just be created to make people who hear about him shout, "No! That's not fair! What ever that guy did, it can not have been that bad!") And helping others out of that condition isn't selfish then, but is just something one naturally does? Otherwise helping others would always contain some kind of selfishness because to lift the burden for others will also lift the burden for oneself, naturally, because of the non-dual nature? What would be considered a complete selfless act (action) or doing? What must such an act imply? And what's wrong with being selfish as a helper if it actually helps others who need that help? I don't really understand how you came to that conclusion. Yes, I didn't express well what I wanted to say. I wanted to say, that in some cases suffering might be wanted. In other words, the one who is suffering suffers, knowing that the suffering he or she endures is meant to be and is okay and is not considered as wrong or to get rid of. When one wants to commit suicide because to be alive seems to be worse than being dead, there can come a realisation that staying alive instead of taking ones life, although one suffers and can't enjoy being alive anymore, is prefered over being dead (being dead as non existence). To endure a life in suffering, suffering from being alive although one knows being alive isn't and will not be pleasurable any longer, can be wanted, prefered over being dead. As some sort of punishment. "I suffer. Knowing what I have done was loveless and selfish. And what I didn't do but should have was selfish and careless also. Without honor, dignity and respect my life is meaningless and empty. All I have is the duty to stay alive because I'm in God's hands and am not supposed to end my life myself. Because I can't know what God's plan is for me. If I'm supposed to die, I will die. It's not up to me to deceide when that will be. I prefer to suffer from enduring to be alive if that is God's will for me." Not opposing and accepting God's will and judgement is considered as preferable over anything else. To be under and in God's law, even if that means constant suffering, is prefered. |
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Post by Figgles on Dec 25, 2017 18:05:26 GMT
Clearly, your 'should/should not' list extends way beyond that. Just think of all the conspiracy theory stuff and your response to it, your political views and the values behind them, your ideas about how the world can be made better....some very strong judgements there. Sure! I am very clear clear on the context in which I will use the word 'should', but there are many many examples within that context...I just offered one. What I was getting at with the fundamentally bit was; Peace can still abide even in the face of surface upset. And by general I was referencing holding a blanket opinion about, vs. a present moment thing where child abuse was in your face and you had to take action to oppose it. Well, how about I make the language a little more explicit. Can, and should, you be ''fundamentally content'' while hearing a story on the news about a child being raped and murdered? So long as one is free, Being (and the peace that abides with it, along with the seeing that fundamentally, all is well) continues to abide even as one hears such a horrendous story. On the surface of things one can react emotionally to that sad scenario, but simultaneously, still not lose sight of the inherent peace of Being. & on that note, you said something very telling when you said that no one in this sick society should feel contentment (or something very similar). What you are advocating there then, is conditional contentment, when really, there is a sense of ease, goodness, a knowing that despite appearances, all is well, that has nothing at all to do with conditions. |
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Dec 25, 2017 18:29:46 GMT
Well, how about I make the language a little more explicit. Can, and should, you be ''fundamentally content'' while hearing a story on the news about a child being raped and murdered? So long as one is free, Being (and the peace that abides with it, along with the seeing that fundamentally, all is well) continues to abide even as one hears such a horrendous story. On the surface of things one can react emotionally to that sad scenario, but simultaneously, still not lose sight of the inherent peace of Being. & on that note, you said something very telling when you said that no one in this sick society should feel contentment (or something very similar). What you are advocating there then, is conditional contentment, when really, there is a sense of ease, goodness, a knowing that despite appearances, all is well, that has nothing at all to do with conditions. Your answer was quite abstract. Was that a 'yes', you are ''fundamentally content'' when you hear the news that a child has been raped and murdered? You didn't ask me a question, but....yes, I don't believe folks should feel contented on hearing that a child has been raped. I see contentment as conditional by its nature. |
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Post by Figgles on Dec 25, 2017 18:36:36 GMT
So long as one is free, Being (and the peace that abides with it, along with the seeing that fundamentally, all is well) continues to abide even as one hears such a horrendous story. On the surface of things one can react emotionally to that sad scenario, but simultaneously, still not lose sight of the inherent peace of Being. & on that note, you said something very telling when you said that no one in this sick society should feel contentment (or something very similar). What you are advocating there then, is conditional contentment, when really, there is a sense of ease, goodness, a knowing that despite appearances, all is well, that has nothing at all to do with conditions. Your answer was quite abstract. Was that a 'yes', you are ''fundamentally content'' when you hear the news that a child has been raped and murdered? You didn't ask me a question, but....yes, I don't believe folks should feel contented on hearing that a child has been raped. I see contentment as conditional by its nature. There is indeed a form of contentment that is, a surface, conditional feeling of being contented relative to not, but there is also very much a fundamental sense/seeing that is not conditional, a deep, pervasive, abiding knowing that all is actually well and good, despite what's happening on the surface of things. So, when I say "yes, fundamental contentment continues to abide alongside hearing a nasty news story that makes me feel a surface sadness", it is that fundamental sense of goodness/wellness I am speaking of. |
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Dec 25, 2017 18:42:22 GMT
Your answer was quite abstract. Was that a 'yes', you are ''fundamentally content'' when you hear the news that a child has been raped and murdered? You didn't ask me a question, but....yes, I don't believe folks should feel contented on hearing that a child has been raped. I see contentment as conditional by its nature. There is indeed a form of contentment that is, a surface, conditional feeling of being contented relative to not, but there is also very much a fundamental sense/seeing that is not conditional, a deep, pervasive, abiding knowing that all is actually well and good, despite what's happening on the surface of things. So, when I say "yes, fundamental contentment continues to abide alongside hearing a nasty news story that makes me feel a surface sadness", it is that fundamental sense of goodness/wellness I am speaking of. Okay, so it sounds like you experience a mixture of things upon hearing that news. I don't really, for me it is just a cohesive sense of 'that's unpleasant'. Can we test your experience on this a bit further? For example, if you were to hear the news that a member of your family had been brutally raped and murdered an hour ago, are you still going to experience some of this ''fundamental contentment''? |
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Post by Figgles on Dec 25, 2017 18:59:01 GMT
Okay, so it sounds like you experience a mixture of things upon hearing that news. I don't really, for me it is just a cohesive sense of 'that's unpleasant'. Can we test your experience on this a bit further? For example, if you were to hear the news that a member of your family had been brutally raped and murdered an hour ago, are you still going to experience some of this ''fundamental contentment''? Well, that's never happened, and I hope it doesn't, so can't say for certain, but can say, (to invoke a circumstance where I received 'very bad' personal news) When I received a call from a paramedic looking for medical info and in the course of that, telling me he had no pulse on my brother, amidst the initial panic and a flurry of copious tears and sobs, a deep, pervasive sense of "All is well," arose and superceded all that. And as things evolved, and I drove my folks to the hospital and we all found out he was in fact, dead, it abided. |
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Dec 25, 2017 19:02:43 GMT
Okay, so it sounds like you experience a mixture of things upon hearing that news. I don't really, for me it is just a cohesive sense of 'that's unpleasant'. Can we test your experience on this a bit further? For example, if you were to hear the news that a member of your family had been brutally raped and murdered an hour ago, are you still going to experience some of this ''fundamental contentment''? Well, that's never happened, and I hope it doesn't, so can't say for certain, but can say, (to invoke a circumstance where I received 'very bad' personal news) When I received a call from a paramedic looking for medical info and in the course of that, telling me he had no pulse on my brother, amidst the initial panic and a flurry of copious tears and sobs, a deep, pervasive sense of "All is well," arose and superceded all that. And as things evolved, and I drove my folks to the hospital and we all found out he was in fact, dead, it abided. Yes, I can relate to that, but it's not the example I asked abput. Death can be a peaceful event. Your family being tortured? Not so much in my opinion. |
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Post by Figgles on Dec 25, 2017 19:03:12 GMT
Okay, so it sounds like you experience a mixture of things upon hearing that news. I don't really, for me it is just a cohesive sense of 'that's unpleasant'. You've just explained perfectly the difference between being swept up in experiential content, vs. awake to it, and thus, still engaging it, but not getting swept up and away IN it. That cohesive sense of that's unpleasant, absent any abiding sense of okayness, means you have identified with the material. |
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Post by Figgles on Dec 25, 2017 19:09:21 GMT
Well, that's never happened, and I hope it doesn't, so can't say for certain, but can say, (to invoke a circumstance where I received 'very bad' personal news) When I received a call from a paramedic looking for medical info and in the course of that, telling me he had no pulse on my brother, amidst the initial panic and a flurry of copious tears and sobs, a deep, pervasive sense of "All is well," arose and superceded all that. And as things evolved, and I drove my folks to the hospital and we all found out he was in fact, dead, it abided. Yes, I can relate to that, but it's not the example I asked abput. Death can be a peaceful event. Your family being tortured? Not so much in my opinion.  I would hardly describe getting a phone call out of the blue from paramedics, regarding a beloved sibling, whom I thought was home relaxing, telling me they're working to try to get his heart beating again, but it's very likely he's already gone, a "peaceful event." Re: your very extreme scenario...It's never happened, so obviously I cannot say for certain. I've seen my children in a great deal of pain at various junctures, and find in such cases, I always have access to the calm within. Would that be the case regardless of how horrendous the situation....who knows? I can't imagine that somehow I'd unrealize what I have realized. (That regardless of surface happenings, all is actually well and good)....but, anything is possible. |
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Dec 25, 2017 19:37:05 GMT
Okay, so it sounds like you experience a mixture of things upon hearing that news. I don't really, for me it is just a cohesive sense of 'that's unpleasant'. You've just explained perfectly the difference between being swept up in experiential content, vs. awake to it, and thus, still engaging it, but not getting swept up and away IN it. That cohesive sense of that's unpleasant, absent any abiding sense of okayness, means you have identified with the material. Then that's fine with me. For me, there is a time for what you call 'identification', it is an appropriate response to a situation. Whereas I see the idea of being contented at the idea of your children being tortured as either spiritual idealism/correctness or being a psychopath (I see what you are saying as the former, rather than the latter!) |
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