Self Help/Myticism vs. Nonduality

Figgles
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Self Help/Myticism vs. Nonduality Oct 3, 2024 21:11:03 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Oct 3, 2024 21:11:03 GMT

GURDJIEFF: Ever since you started coming here, you have heard it constantly repeated that you must acquire an ‘I’. Today, everything is changing, unstable, inconsistent. You are a taxi available to any chance passenger. You must acquire an unchangeable ‘I’. That is what is most important, what you must focus all your efforts on.

This demonstrates a clear conceptualization (vs. realization). Gurdjieff is selling identification with a "some-thing/a discrete object" that is unchanging...which is an oxymoron...a contradiction, and can only mean, he had zero reference for an objectless-thing-less....substance-less, unchanging ground and had instead erroneously conflated the experiential sense of discrete, individuated "being" for that within which the sense of being, arises. It seems to be the most common of all mistakes made when it comes to Nonduality/realization of Truth.

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Self Help/Myticism vs. Nonduality Oct 27, 2024 20:31:45 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Oct 27, 2024 20:31:45 GMT

Ina:
Fretting about who will be the next president is counterproductive to you (impersonal use here).

You should approach it, as everything, from a constructive perspective, consciously generating unspecific positive expectations about the future, then make your intuitive choices.

There is an infinite number of presents, of pasts, of futures. You only experience or learn about the ones that resonate with you.

Your fear, anger, hate, will cause you to join a probable reality that will cause you more of those.

If Bashar came up with a prediction, it proved Anka's limitations.

Similarly, spending a whole lotta time trying to determine the hows & whys of human experience is also counterproductive. Whatever story you come up with....such as; infinite number of presents, pasts, futures...you only experience/learn about the ones that resonate with you, your fear, anger, hate will "cause" you to join to probable realities that will "cause" more of the same....all of that interest and focus equals ties and binds....yet one more anchor to the dream-state.

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Self Help/Myticism vs. Nonduality Nov 5, 2024 18:02:52 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Nov 5, 2024 18:02:52 GMT

JLY:
Question: Nisargadatta Maharaj provides a profound account of his realization: "Pleasure and pain lost their sway over me. I was free from desire and fear. I found myself full, needing nothing. I saw that in the ocean of pure awareness, on the surface of the universal consciousness, the numberless waves of the phenomenal worlds arise and subside beginninglessly and endlessly. As consciousness, they are all me. As events, they are all mine. There is a mysterious power that looks after them. That power is awareness, Self, Life, God, whatever name you give it. It is the foundation, the ultimate support of all that is, just like gold is the basis for all gold jewelry. And it is so intimately ours! Abstract the name and shape from the jewelry, and the gold becomes obvious. Be free of name and form and of the desires and fears they create, then what remains?"

What might he have meant by saying, "There is a mysterious power that looks after them"? In the Christian Bible, there is a passage that states, "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father's care." Do these statements convey a similar meaning?

It's not by accident that that particular line, which involves a concession to mind in an otherwise, impersonal vantage-point quote/pointer, stood out and is the one you're interested in expounding upon.

The seeking mind will always gravitate towards placating, 'feel good' sentiments in favor of pointers to the impersonal....pointers to Truth.

Notice the quote says; "Pleasure and pain lost their sway over me. I was free from desire and fear....needing nothing." There's still an allowance there for an arising of pain, it's just that there's no longer any need to try to do away with it or change it.

The popular new age idea that says there is a higher power/God/someone/something that "looks after" you as a person, is popular because it soothes and comforts mind...an SVP who is still very much in need of conditions to comform to his liking, in order for him to be okay.

It's important to note that when it comes to Niz quotes like this one, it's entirely possible that language/translation has played a part in what seems to be a context flip within a particular quote and/or a concession to mind that serves as a hook to the seeker, such as we're seeing here.

The last line, clarifies; "Be free of name and form and of the desires and fears they create, then what remains?"

To be free of identification with name and form (the SVP) and the desires/fears that SVP comes hand in hand in hand with, is to also be free from a need to have mind satisfying, person-coddling platitudes that say there is some higher power/some-thing, that is in control of everything and looking out for your 'personal' best interests.

Experientially speaking, a sense that the unfolding of life has a fundamentally, sort of "benevolent/loving" foundation to it is one thing, and so long as it's not mistaken for fundamental Truth and is recognized as an 'in the dream idea/sense,' that does not violate Oneness, but if that idea is mis-taken for Absolute Truth, that is an erroneous invoking of fundamental separation.

SR means being crystal clear on the distinction between appearance only vs. fundamental Truth....relative vs. Absolute. The seeker's largest mistake is that he muddles them up and cannot decipher one from the other.

ChatGPT: Nisargadatta's statement about the "mysterious power that looks after them" can be interpreted as a recognition of a fundamental, unifying consciousness or awareness that underlies all existence. This power is not merely an abstract idea but a living essence that connects and sustains all forms of life and phenomena. By referring to it as awareness, Self, Life, or God, Nisargadatta emphasizes the multifaceted nature of this reality, suggesting that it transcends specific labels or forms, just as gold is the essence of jewelry regardless of its shape or design.

In the context of the biblical passage, there is indeed a resonance between the two statements. The verse highlights the notion of divine care and attention to even the smallest of creatures (sparrows), underscoring the idea that nothing is beyond the watchful eye of a higher power. Both passages convey a sense of interconnectedness and the assurance that all beings and events are enveloped in a greater, nurturing consciousness.

Tell that to the mouse that's being ripped apart by an eagle....the sparrow mangled by the playful cat....

The problem here is that mind's ideas about 'caring/being under the watchful eye of a higher being/power,' is being muddled up with the pointer to fundamental perfection....fundamental love/peace.

Nisargadatta's exploration of this "mysterious power" may suggest that, although the phenomenal world is filled with dualities, desires, and fears, there is an underlying support system that maintains balance and order.

This is where AI clearly fails. Niz was not "exploring" some "mysterious power," he was pointing to fundamental perfection...absence of fundamental wrongness...emptiness of personal judgments, and then seemingly, making a concession to mind/the experiential as he ties in the experiential sense of deep contentment/peace with the realization of such.

Just as the Bible assures that every sparrow is cared for, Nisargadatta implies that every wave in the ocean of consciousness is attended to by this awareness, ultimately leading to a sense of freedom from the transient concerns of life.

Again, AI is way off here; Freedom does not mean a complete and total absence of concern regarding life....a transient concern/caring that arises and falls does not impede freedom, but a concern that has a depth of judgment that condemns what is happening as "intolerable" does. The belief in a higher power that cares for you as a person, if taken to heart does often to some degree, help mitigate the transient concerns of life, but it most certainly does not dissolve them completely.

Thus, both perspectives invite reflection on the nature of existence, suggesting that beyond our individual experiences and perceptions lies a deeper reality that is inherently caring and supportive, encouraging us to look beyond the surface of our experiences to recognize this underlying unity.

This is nothing more than the idea that pretty much every new age spirituality teaching puts forth. That "deeper reality" indicated in that quote is NOT the "beyond/prior to" viewpoint that SR/awakening demands, instead it is still very 'in the dream,' where the person is being mistaken as an existent something/someone who is being taken care of by an all powerful, personal creator/God.

The singularity of Oneness, (which is but a pointer) is not to be conflated with 'an underlying unity that connects, cares for and supports, all phenomenal things.'

Last Edit: Nov 5, 2024 18:03:28 GMT by Figgles

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Self Help/Myticism vs. Nonduality Nov 13, 2024 19:52:53 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Nov 13, 2024 19:52:53 GMT

JLY:
Here, it seems like you’re interpreting this to mean that you have your own individual soul, separate from the Absolute, that moves from body to body, reincarnating over and over.

But that’s not what I hear in the words of ZD and Krishna above. I hear them both expressing something quite the opposite of that view.

If it turns out that there's continued experience following bodily death of an appearing "me" that is somehow a more expansive, wise, intuitively knowing, conglomerate... some-thing/some-one, that remains 'individualized/discrete' from apparent other something/some-one's, that in no way equals "separate from the Absolute."

The current experience of a discrete, unique 'me character' in no way defies the Truth that that appearance is not separate from the Absolute, so why would you leap to that assumption re: a continued experiential 'me/I/someone/something' following bodily death...or, preceding a new experience of birth of a human form?

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Self Help/Myticism vs. Nonduality Nov 16, 2024 5:22:06 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Nov 16, 2024 5:22:06 GMT

Ina:
You get cancer for psychic and psychological reasons, not for physical reasons.

The very search for 'reasons' is but a mind-game from the impersonal vantage point. A given life story is a singular expression...no separation, despite what might appear to be so...which means, just as the present drama unfolding on the movie screen is not actually "caused/created" by the previous happening within the movie, whatever unfolds within the experiential dream, is also, devoid of actual cause/reason.

The pursuit of reason is really the pursuit of personal need to make sense of what's happening. The stronger that need, the deeper the search...the more entrenched the 'seeker/seeking movement.'

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Self Help/Myticism vs. Nonduality Nov 16, 2024 19:12:13 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Nov 16, 2024 19:12:13 GMT

Ina:
In the case of the three individuals you mentioned, considering what they are known here for, it seems likely that their terminal illnesses resulted from the same psychic and psychological condition, consequence of where their spiritual paths led them. This doesn't negate in any way their merits, but it is a warning to others, warning the three might've not been aware of. As others here, they believed they knew (tasted, ...) thee Truth. That prevented them from going deeper.

This is such a limited, limiting viewpoint/idea. Seeking for "reasons" within the dream as to "why" a particular something happened, specifically why a certain mode of bodily death was as it was, really is a mode of seeking that mires and anchors attention within the dream.

Behind that seeking to know 'why' is a fundamental judgment that finds fault with the very fact of polarity within experience....that judges the 'roller-coaster' motion of life itself, to be fundamentally wrong/bad...not as it "should be."

The transcendent view makes peace with that inherent motion between polarities....thus, makes peace with the very fact of a human body that eventually dies and all the myriad of conditions that might arise relative to that body.

Like or not Ina, when it comes to the personal, human body, as this story seems to go, none of us are getting out of this play alive!

And that really IS okay.

Mastery is not to be judged by some imagined ability to "control" outcomes, to control conditions, but rather, by the presence or absence of acceptance/peace regarding whatever may arise.

Relatively speaking, the human body/mind seems to have a built-in mechanism of gravitating towards 'positive' change, healing from disease, self-betterment, etc. But the transcendent viewpoint trumps all of that and puts it neatly in it's place. That doesn't mean that a guru/master would completely deny or avoid bodily, potentially healing treatments, etc. but it would mean that there's no fundamental-based "need" attached to any potential outcome.

Freedom lies in the dissolution of need for life content to be a particular way, in order for peace to prevail. It does not lie in some erroneously imagined, personal ability to control life content.

Looking to an apparent others personal, apparent conditions to try to decipher his realizational status, amounts to a fool's errand....looking for Truth is all the wrong places.

Last Edit: Nov 16, 2024 19:14:18 GMT by Figgles

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Self Help/Myticism vs. Nonduality Nov 16, 2024 19:37:28 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Nov 16, 2024 19:37:28 GMT

YoMadreGorda:
I may have the screen names wrong. Someone - I thought you - said there is "no objective reality". In common use of the term, the "objective" reality is a shared reality, and the "subjective" reality is the private world, the mind – unknown to others, unless you communicate about it via words, artistic expression, facial expressions, etc.

Yes. And you've got the right the person. He/she is confused though. A purely 'subjective' reality leaves no room for a knowing of a reality that 'others' are also experiencing. Ina's trying to have his cake and eat it to; No objective reality, BUT, he somehow knows that other's ARE experiencing their own 'subjective' reality.

However in other contexts, spiritual contexts, the "subjective" reality can also be considered as shared. For example, some consider there is "one pure Consciousness", that is the same in all living beings, so that the pure subjective reality, beyond the personal mind and it's fantasies, is also shared.

That though remains "a belief/idea," and cannot be ascertained with "Absolute" certainty.

In my reality, cancer is caused by (among other things) physical factors. For example, if we spent time hanging around the Chernobyl reactor meltdown site, we would develop physical problems which the biologists call "cancer" - ie, damaged cell DNA and it's associated symptoms and physical death. There are also psychic and psychological causes for cancer and other diseases. It's all connected.

Relatively speaking, even the SR engage to some degree with those 'in the dream' causalities/creation, however, if the primary locus of seeing truly is shifted to 'beyond,' that relative, experiential facet will be devoid of fundamental substance and thus, all apparent causality/creation within the dream becomes elevated to "correlation only."

And...when it comes to correlation, which is an appearance...a facet of the unfolding story/dream, anything remains a possibility...there are no inviolable 'laws.'

Ina:
An objective physical reality, the way I use these terms, implies the existence of one physical reality that exists out there that does its own thing, that I and the other participants in it perceive through our individual independent physical senses with some degree of accuracy; one objective reference.

I believe there is no such objective physical reality.

I believe that what I perceive is a subjective physical reality, meaning that what I observe and participate in as physical reality is a unique version, somewhat different from all the other versions perceived by all the other participants, created by my subconscious (a part of my multidimensional personality) based on the information received through my inner senses from a nonphysical framework.

By what means do you know of this 'other' realities that you say are also being 'subjectively' created/experienced?

The physical reality that I perceive is subjectively created, meaning that it reflects my individual beliefs and expectations, independently from all the other participants.

Do you recognize that "all the other participants" are part and parcel of what you deem to be your 'subjectively' perceived/experienced reality? How do you know they have any existence beyond your subjective perception of them?

I continuously join and leave gestalts of reality, function of how they resonate with my beliefs and expectations. Ultimately, I aim to learn to consciously handle my inner senses, to shed my limiting beliefs, to set and sustain my expectations, so that I experience a reality as I intend to.

Which is another way of saying your highest goal/value in life is control inner senses in order to have a life experience where desires/preferences manifest into reality as intended.

All good, but the freedom of Nonduality/Truth is not about that. It's about accepting/allowing the fundamental nature of experience to be as it is, absent a depth of need that would seek to try to control 'inner senses' for the purpose of creating things and conditions that are pleasing to mind.

If it were truly possible to engineer a means of fully controlling the inner landscape....all feelings....why not instead focus upon achieving a state whereby whatever happens, is accepted, allowed, even loved? The Truth is, there is no means of doing that....acceptance/allowance has an absence that is beyond human control inherent to it...but it is interesting how the LOA'ers never consider how free they'd be if all need for life to be a certain way, fell away.

This requires a growth of my multidimensional entity that is achieved over many attempts, some of them being classes taken in this physical reality framework. Those classes are chosen, and have a predetermined curriculum that I go through.

This is a very common New Age idea. One of which remains but a belief/idea...cannot be proven in any Absolute sense.

Last Edit: Nov 16, 2024 19:38:08 GMT by Figgles

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Self Help/Myticism vs. Nonduality Nov 19, 2024 21:24:07 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Nov 19, 2024 21:24:07 GMT

James Allen, As A Man Thinketh

Sharon:

That’s a very thoughtful book. Short but immensely valuable.

Yes, it's 'immensely valuable' to a seeker who is in need of conditions conforming with separation-based desires....to a mind seeking comforting ideas that promise personal control over outcomes.