ZD's Mistake | Spiritualgab

Figgles
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ZD's Mistake Sept 5, 2022 17:07:58 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Sept 5, 2022 17:07:58 GMT

Zazeniac: I am compelled to say something, but stray off in an attempt to understand the source of the compulsion. Still noone has answered my question: does Jim Henson or Kermit kiss Miss Piggy? The answer to which is paramount in all THIS, maybe.

ZD:
That's a pretty good koan. Anyone who discerns the obvious answer will get a chuckle. Hint: the answer is NOT Jim Henson and it is NOT Miss Piggy.

Interesting. You've just asserted BOTH Jim Henson and the puppets as appearance only....neither being the a 'doer.' Which is correct!...by the way.

But then, you've also said, (over and over) that THIS 'does stuff' VIA an appearing human. And in such, you've just reified the puppet and the puppeteer as having 'doership'...being a 'doer.'

You can't have it both ways ZD...Truth is stark and leaves no room for paradox/ambiguity.

The Truth is; That which appears...the appearing person, is NOT a doer.

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ZD's Mistake Sept 8, 2022 1:51:56 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Sept 8, 2022 1:51:56 GMT

Zendancer: It might be worth noting that although suffering is a central concept in traditional Buddhism, it isn't given the same importance in Advaita Vedanta. Suffering may drive a lot of people to pursue ND, but curiosity, alone, can also be a major driver, and I suspect that if curiosity-driven people were asked about suffering, very few of them would equate suffering with existential curiosity.

Let's just call it what it is then; Erroneously imagined separation....specifically, "delusion."

Where there is existential curiosity, delusion is in play. Period. End of story.

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ZD's Mistake Sept 23, 2022 3:36:32 GMT Esponja likes this

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Post by Figgles on Sept 23, 2022 3:36:32 GMT

ZD:Scott Kiloby stated the situation fairly well in the quote I posted some time ago. I can't remember the exact wording, but it was something like, "even if the thought of selfhood arises after realization, it is empty because it's no longer understood as something actual."

In other words...."an empty appearance, only."

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ZD's Mistake Sept 23, 2022 4:11:05 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Sept 23, 2022 4:11:05 GMT

Zendancer:
Definitely not! He's pointing to something that the mind/intellect cannot grasp. The intellect only deals with images, ideas, and symbols--the known. The living truth is beyond anything that the mind can imagine.

Yes, which means beyond the knowledge of what is known within experience as "aliveness,"....beyond the idea that via a Ken Show experience that blew your fruit of the looms off, you now (falsely/erroneously) know for certain that all appearing people...all appearing things, are giving rise to experience/perception.

And btw, "intellect" is but a facet of mind. You constantly conflate/equate the two, (mind/intellect) which neglects certain facets of mind, such as the fact that "body knowing" is still a facet that falls under the umbrella of 'mind-stuff..dream-stuff.'

You've vilified certain, very specific facets of mind, (images, ideas, symbols) while completely glossing over what's left. Again, this is why it's so important to see the entire gamut of "perceivables" as empty appearance only. That way you're not singling out certain facets of experience as being 'of mind,' while erroneously elevating others as somehow "beyond/prior to"...or somehow otherwise, "not" of mind/intellect.

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ZD's Mistake Sept 23, 2022 4:27:14 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Sept 23, 2022 4:27:14 GMT

Zendancer: Einstein once said, "I think 99 times and find nothing; I stop thinking, swim in silence, and the truth comes to me." He was describing the process of scientific inquiry that results in a eureka moment, but the same approach applies to existential questions. Here's the basic formula:

1. Clearly formulate whatever question seems important. Perhaps the question is, "What is the true nature of reality?" or "Is there such a thing as God?"
2. Think about the question; mull it over.
3. Relax and shift attention away from thoughts via some meditative activity such as listening to universal sound or listening to whatever ambient sounds are present.

Good God man.

What's funny is there was a time a ways back where Reefs for one, would have shredded you for that kind of assertion, and I'm sure there was major cringing going on by a few on on ST as they read those words, equating the scientific approach with receiving answers to existential questions, but due to the general lack of integrity and the prioritization of the buddy-program. I'm quite sure, no one is gonna address the delusion inherent in those assertions.

Dude...the very fact that you think you HAVE pat/solid answers to those existential questions is a testament to your state of delusion.

Those kinds of existential questions don't get answered in SR, they get seen for what the are....misconceived.

Even though the mind is now silent, the subconscious retains the question. IOW, what you actually ARE knows what wants to be known that images, ideas, and symbols cannot resolve. If the question is important, and if the intellect remains quiescent, sooner or later the answer will suddenly appear and there will be no doubt about what is realized.

If you end up with a pat answer, this was nothing more than a mind game....you've simply sunk further into delusion. If there is true "realization," you don't arrive at an answer, rather, you see that the very seeking for the answer, was based on a delusion. Any arrived answer says you went looking in the wrong direction..headed back into the dream when freedom lies beyond/outside of the dream.

Some existential questions can be resolved in an hour or two of silence, but the heavy duty questions may require weeks, months, or years of silence. In the Zen tradition a handful of unique koans are given to people who are interested in enlightenment because the resolution of those questions will often cause the ordinary sense of reality to totally disintegrate. People to whom that occurs say that it's like being catapulted from a world where everything is dead and flat into a world that is vibrantly alive, unified, infinite, mysterious, and beyond intellectual comprehension. Pursuing existential questions is an attempt to access the vast intelligence that underlies everything and runs the whole show. That intelligence is what pumps blood through the body, grows every plant and animal, and looks out of every set of eyes.

Again, this is mysticism, not Truth/Nonduality.

Whether you experience a world that is flat...dead....drab...sad...OR a world that is vibrantly alive, unified, infinite, mysterious, it's all "experiential content,"...still within the dream. To see from beyond the dream is to see that those existential questions and the one pursuing them, were facets of the dream itself....the questions no longer have validity because the one who was seeking to know, is now seen through.

The intellect is like a tiny virtual reality-generating laptop computer, but the laptop is connected to a vast but hidden mainframe computer. Whether they know it or not, all spiritual seekers are searching for a way to access that mainframe. The three steps, above, describe how to do that. Believe it or not.

Believe it or not, freedom lies beyond even that "hidden mainframe" that you have mistaken to be transcendent of what you call "intellect." The mainframe is still "mind,"...still "a perceivable"....."experiential content."

Further ZD....

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ZD's Mistake Sept 23, 2022 4:38:38 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Sept 23, 2022 4:38:38 GMT

Zendancer:
1. What could explain the observer paradoxes in physics?

Once you see that Science is an appearance only....a facet within the dream/story of life, there is no explanation necessary...and, any explanation you can come up with to answer such a relative question, will itself also be relative...not Truth.

2. What is a subatomic particle, really?

An appearance within the dream.

3. How did life appear in what appears to be a lifeless universe?

This involves an assumption first of all, THAT life appeared within a universe that is deemed to have been previously lifeless. How the heck could you know any of that? But ultimately, the very idea that "life" made some kind of initial appearance, eons ago...that's just a whole lot of imagining going on.

That question is grossly misconceived and evidence of separation still very much in play. See through separation and that whole question collapses...you might even laugh that it was ever entertained at all.

4. What is time?

The very fact that you came away with an addition of knowledge re: this question is very telling. Nothing short of a seeing through/absence = clarity...the apprehension of Truth.

There are probably some others, but those are ones that I clearly remember. There were dozens of other questions, but they were either formal koans or existential questions of a different kind.

To be clear, although I was a scientist, I wasn't asking questions in the same way that scientists usually ask their questions. I wasn't interested in the "standard model" because I intuited that it was somehow flawed. I was interested in what's going on at a more fundamental level. Scientists are culturally conditioned to imagine reality in the same way as other humans, so they begin by accepting that the universe is an empty space filled with separate things being looked at by separate things. Very few of them ever question this basic assumption.

So in other words, you were still looking within the dream for an answer, just 'deeper' within it than so called typical "scientists."

The seeing through of all those misconceived question lies "beyond."

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ZD's Mistake Sept 23, 2022 4:47:31 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Sept 23, 2022 4:47:31 GMT

Reefs: What you are describing there is alignment. Alignment is a very delicate balance, a moment to moment thing, so you're never done, because you either have it in the moment or you don't. It's not like once you've achieved it, it's yours. And there's no end to ever deeper states of alignment.

So it seems to me that you and SDP may be confusing SR with alignment. Because SR and alignment, especially deep alignment (loss of sense of self) can look almost identical from the outside. I think this explains SDP's doubting thomas attitude. He somehow knows that that's not it. But that's all his maps can ever capture. So he stubbornly sticks with it, even though it says on the map "burn after reading"!

Once the SVP has been seen through, what is left there to BE "out of alignment with Source"?

In clarity it's obvious that regardless of what feeling/sense is arising, it's all God/Godding...nothing that happens in experience is ever actually "out of place/mis-aligned." That seeing/realization means that whatever is arising feeling wise, content wise, is essentially deemed to be 'perfect.'

In SR, there is no longer an entity in play who can be aligned or misaligned.

If the SVP disappears and then reappears as you seem to be asserting it does, that's not abiding SR/wakefulness. I think you've mistaken a glimmer or two perhaps, and then the memory of that, for the actuality of 'waking up.' That's the only way to explain your insistence upon this "alignment/misalignment" state continuing to be in play.

SR re-frames all perceivables as fundamentally perfect. That means there's never the depth of judgment towards anything arising in the dream that require something called "alignment."

You are standing firmly in the shoes of a separate person/entity, judging certain conditions, certain feelings to be "not okay/out of alignment," and you simply have no reference for a wakefulness that illuminates all those same feelings/conditions, to be fundamentally, not just 'okay,' but absolutely perfect....not a hair out of place.

Esponja
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ZD's Mistake Sept 24, 2022 4:05:23 GMT via mobile Figgles likes this

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Post by Esponja on Sept 24, 2022 4:05:23 GMT

Sept 23, 2022 4:47:31 GMT Figgles said:

Reefs: What you are describing there is alignment. Alignment is a very delicate balance, a moment to moment thing, so you're never done, because you either have it in the moment or you don't. It's not like once you've achieved it, it's yours. And there's no end to ever deeper states of alignment.

So it seems to me that you and SDP may be confusing SR with alignment. Because SR and alignment, especially deep alignment (loss of sense of self) can look almost identical from the outside. I think this explains SDP's doubting thomas attitude. He somehow knows that that's not it. But that's all his maps can ever capture. So he stubbornly sticks with it, even though it says on the map "burn after reading"!

Once the SVP has been seen through, what is left there to BE "out of alignment with Source"?

In clarity it's obvious that regardless of what feeling/sense is arising, it's all God/Godding...nothing that happens in experience is ever actually "out of place/mis-aligned." That seeing/realization means that whatever is arising feeling wise, content wise, is essentially deemed to be 'perfect.'

In SR, there is no longer an entity in play who can be aligned or misaligned.

If the SVP disappears and then reappears as you seem to be asserting it does, that's not abiding SR/wakefulness. I think you've mistaken a glimmer or two perhaps, and then the memory of that, for the actuality of 'waking up.' That's the only way to explain your insistence upon this "alignment/misalignment" state continuing to be in play.

SR re-frames all perceivables as fundamentally perfect. That means there's never the depth of judgment towards anything arising in the dream that require something called "alignment."

You are standing firmly in the shoes of a separate person/entity, judging certain conditions, certain feelings to be "not okay/out of alignment," and you simply have no reference for a wakefulness that illuminates all those same feelings/conditions, to be fundamentally, not just 'okay,' but absolutely perfect....not a hair out of place.

It’s not unusual for ‘peeps’ to fall back to sleep I guess but that search for Truth after the initial glimmer surely takes over? V odd indeedy.

Esponja
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ZD's Mistake Sept 24, 2022 4:43:47 GMT via mobile Figgles likes this

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Post by Esponja on Sept 24, 2022 4:43:47 GMT

Sept 23, 2022 3:36:32 GMT Figgles said:

ZD:Scott Kiloby stated the situation fairly well in the quote I posted some time ago. I can't remember the exact wording, but it was something like, "even if the thought of selfhood arises after realization, it is empty because it's no longer understood as something actual."

In other words...."an empty appearance, only."

💥💥💥💥

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ZD's Mistake Sept 26, 2022 5:52:29 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Sept 26, 2022 5:52:29 GMT

ZD: Just curious what this sentence is referring to. What's the difference between shifting attention away from thoughts to the breath, or shifting attention away from thoughts to direct sensory perception (looking, listening, feeling, etc. in mental silence), or shifting attention away from thoughts to the sense of 'I am,' or shifting attention away from thoughts to the body via tai chi, yoga, etc? Isn't the basic function in all of these meditative activities the shifting of attention away from thoughts?

Ah yes, that basic function of 'shifting' is the same...but behind all of those reasons/intents towards a direction, towards shifting attention, is a seeker, who is trying to attain something he doesn't think he currently has...behind all, the idea that I am a something/some-one who HAS a mind that can be shifted in a direction that will benefit me.