muttley
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Post by muttley on Aug 10, 2020 6:25:28 GMT
.. ♪ is WI .. BI ..GO! ♫
The title of the vid below baited my click on this one, although I think the whole "snowflake" meme is, ultimately, unnecessarily harsh.
The content went much deeper than that. At the center of it is this one bit of cultural/internet drama that apparently happened a few years ago involving this University of Toronto prof, Jordan Petersen. Now, I've since watched some of his stuff (very very litte), and I can't say I'm a fan, but tracing the drama conflagration backward (two video's referred to in the one below) helped me understand some of the roots of the madness going on these days.
If you'll notice, a central theme of discussion is the idea of "Post Modernism". An interesting current illustration of it is an apparent Twitter debate on the notion of "2+2=5". The reason I'm posting this here is because PMism seems to me an expression of people-peep TMT gone mad into a mis-weilding some of the ideas that we're all interested in, such as the meaning of words, the implications of the absence of actual limitation/separation, and the emptiness of ideas and cultural constructs, particularly, identity.
Not surprisingly, the whole affair seems to have turned into a snake swallowing it's tail, been several generations in the making, and has apparently produced a generation of 20-somethings with a high population of folks susceptible to all sorts of hysterical mass-hypnosis manipulations, which they ironically call, being woke. The roots of the term "woke", are obviously, in the new-age, which has clear cultural entanglement with nonduality.
One moment of dialog that implicates WIBIGO, and I found to be both insightful, and an echo of recurring themes on these forums about subject/object and the nature of science was the exchange between Lehmann and Jenkins in response to a comment/question from the host at @ 1:01:30. In my opinion, Jenkins delivers a great punch line, although Lehmann and the host are definitely on the trail of WIBIGO, in terms of, shall we say, a notion of provisional, immediate and conditional objectivity.
I want to also say that I'm not necessarily a complete fan of what CIS.org seems to stand for, either, and I know ST lolly would probly blow his top over them folks.
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Aug 10, 2020 8:51:34 GMT
Watching....
Popped into my head at around 18:00 that Victoria (Australia) is also where extreme lockdown measures are being used. Lockdown of mind being manifested physically.....
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Aug 10, 2020 9:38:55 GMT
The way I see it...
modernity was a period characterized by biological determinism, the pendulum at the far end.
Post modern period has been characterized by cultural determinism, the pendulum at the far end.
At their extremes, they both deny the other extreme, which is absurd as they define each other (objective-subjective)
Personally, I'm strong cultural determinist (though always clear that without the concept of 'sex', there is no concept of 'gender') , but still nowhere near extreme enough for the woke crowd, AND I strongly support free speech (I draw the line at threats). My experience with the woke crowd, is that even though I'm cultural determinist....because I support free speech and don't always side with 'the victim'.... I am at odds with them. I actually find their position sometimes eye rollingly wrong and self defeating, dangerous and not actually helping them to achieve what they really want.
But, I think we have probably had to go to the other extreme because of our former extreme position. I feel the energy will balance at some point (perhaps with the generation of kids born in last 15 years).
I've now watched most of it, I've enjoyed it.
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Aug 10, 2020 9:54:55 GMT
Talking to Jenn a few days ago....I always had a lot of close friends as a kid, and there were times when we all experienced embarrassment and humiliation. We laughed a lot at each other, and ourselves. And while the embarrassment and humiliation was always unpleasant in the moment, we also knew we were basically safe to feel that...that it wasn't that serious. It was all very human.
Today, it seems to me that the woke crowd are trying to eliminate humiliation/embarrassment (and are also losing a lot of comedy gold!). In a sense, I guess they are trying to achieve self-love, but I reckon getting emotionally and intimately messy is a better route than constant sanitizing and regulating the mind/language.
Social distancing another physical expression perhaps of that mental sanitizing.
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Aug 10, 2020 9:58:11 GMT
saw this yesterday and liked it a lot...If the woke crowd really want to make a difference, they would do well to follow Abe
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muttley
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Post by muttley on Aug 10, 2020 23:55:41 GMT
Watching.... Popped into my head at around 18:00 that Victoria (Australia) is also where extreme lockdown measures are being used. Lockdown of mind being manifested physically..... Hadn't considered that. Wowza!
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Enigma
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Post by Enigma on Aug 11, 2020 0:05:08 GMT
saw this yesterday and liked it a lot...If the woke crowd really want to make a difference, they would do well to follow Abe I enjoyed that. Thanks.
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muttley
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Post by muttley on Aug 11, 2020 4:05:13 GMT
The way I see it... modernity was a period characterized by biological determinism, the pendulum at the far end. Post modern period has been characterized by cultural determinism, the pendulum at the far end. At their extremes, they both deny the other extreme, which is absurd as they define each other (objective-subjective) Personally, I'm strong cultural determinist (though always clear that without the concept of 'sex', there is no concept of 'gender') , but still nowhere near extreme enough for the woke crowd, AND I strongly support free speech (I draw the line at threats). My experience with the woke crowd, is that even though I'm cultural determinist....because I support free speech and don't always side with 'the victim'.... I am at odds with them. I actually find their position sometimes eye rollingly wrong and self defeating, dangerous and not actually helping them to achieve what they really want. But, I think we have probably had to go to the other extreme because of our former extreme position. I feel the energy will balance at some point (perhaps with the generation of kids born in last 15 years). I've now watched most of it, I've enjoyed it. Glad you enjoyed it. How do you see the dichotomy as you've described it as related to the term, "nature vs. nurture"?
I get what the wokies mean by gender as a spectrum - up to a point, and there are several interesting analogies between that and the forum dialogs. This was the talk that Lyndsey played the clip to her class from:
Petersen's right that the other UT prof just wants to pretend gender as a spectrum is beyond debate. What I'd ask that guy first is very fundamental .. "do you acknowledge that there are body parts that we refer to as 'penis', 'testicles', 'ovaries', 'vagina' and 'uterus'"? I can guess what his response would be.
One analogy to the forum debates is between experience/realization. While gender - depending on definition - is a spectrum, the question of which set of biological organs someone has, isn't. For the vast majority of people, it's binary. So realization/SR is analogous to that binary, while experience - Jed's "human adulthood" - is analogous to gender.
Another analogy is how the wokies deny the WIBIGO of the binary, and yet another analogy is that they do this because they have an agenda, and from what I can tell, in this denial - as in all unconscious insanity - there is a variety of intentionality. Seems that most of the rank-and-file have blinded themselves to the obvious, while perhaps some of the leadership are a bit more cynical about it, as it's clearly a political power grab .. which is why you can't both: (a) maintain your principles about free speech and not identifying with the victim, while (b) remaining aligned with them.
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muttley
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Posts: 4,394
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Post by muttley on Aug 11, 2020 4:10:48 GMT
Talking to Jenn a few days ago....I always had a lot of close friends as a kid, and there were times when we all experienced embarrassment and humiliation. We laughed a lot at each other, and ourselves. And while the embarrassment and humiliation was always unpleasant in the moment, we also knew we were basically safe to feel that...that it wasn't that serious. It was all very human. Today, it seems to me that the woke crowd are trying to eliminate humiliation/embarrassment (and are also losing a lot of comedy gold!). In a sense, I guess they are trying to achieve self-love, but I reckon getting emotionally and intimately messy is a better route than constant sanitizing and regulating the mind/language. Social distancing another physical expression perhaps of that mental sanitizing. Uhg, the humiliating events I experienced as a youngster don't remind me of any sort of upside.
What struck me about the underlying debate about pronoun use was how impossibly fragile it is to base one's sense of identity on what other people think of them. For the Canadian's to pass a law in support of that is sheer madness. It's bound to lead directly to insanity, no hope of passing go first. And, of course, attachment to identity is a major forum theme.
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muttley
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Posts: 4,394
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Post by muttley on Aug 11, 2020 4:16:24 GMT
saw this yesterday and liked it a lot...If the woke crowd really want to make a difference, they would do well to follow Abe Well, what seems WIBIGO to me here is that history is inescapable, but how we orient ourselves to it is entirely within our own control.
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