Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Jun 12, 2020 11:13:47 GMT
yes agree, but thats also what i meant by 'Oneness also transcends/goes beyond itself as a concept'. And then I offered 'No-thingness' to highlight that. Here, let's get all heretical about spwitchal espeerwiances. 
Have you ever had the experience of suddenly noticing - quite viscerally - that you really are imagining all the object boundaries you perceive?  .. and perhaps "imagination" is probably going too far .. what I mean to convey is the experience of actually feeling how it is the internal processes of the body mind that actively create the perceptions of those boundaries. yep |
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muttley
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Post by muttley on Jun 12, 2020 11:15:55 GMT
Do you mean to say that the philosophical inference is distinct but not separate from the realization? ok, well, hope you can see how I find that to contradict this. Not worth chasing you around the interwebs for the next 10 years, just thought I'd register it.  I can see how it could seem to contradict that, but it's a bit unfortunate because I chose the concepts with care, and I can't express it much better. What I mean is, that if it was true that appearances were ''independent'' from each other, there would be no Truth to realize. Realization is only a possibility because it's (contextually/relatively) true that appearances are unified, whole, intimately connected. This 'unity' means that ultimately, there are no appearances/forms....there is only 'Being'....and one has to 'realize' that, because 'understanding' is another appearance/form. Well, similar to my endless dialogs with figs, we could go round and round on this indefinitely, so, instead, I'll just stop now.  |
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Jun 12, 2020 11:16:52 GMT
I can see how it could seem to contradict that, but it's a bit unfortunate because I chose the concepts with care, and I can't express it much better. What I mean is, that if it was true that appearances were ''independent'' from each other, there would be no Truth to realize. Realization is only a possibility because it's (contextually/relatively) true that appearances are unified, whole, intimately connected. This 'unity' means that ultimately, there are no appearances/forms....there is only 'Being'....and one has to 'realize' that, because 'understanding' is another appearance/form. Well, similar to my endless dialogs with figs, we could go round and round on this indefinitely, so, instead, I'll just stop now. okay |
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muttley
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Post by muttley on Jun 12, 2020 11:16:57 GMT
Here, let's get all heretical about spwitchal espeerwiances.
Have you ever had the experience of suddenly noticing - quite viscerally - that you really are imagining all the object boundaries you perceive? .. and perhaps "imagination" is probably going too far .. what I mean to convey is the experience of actually feeling how it is the internal processes of the body mind that actively create the perceptions of those boundaries. yep Trippy, right? 
Now, can you remember this happening when you had no sort of conscious notion of what was happening, and then again, at a later time, when you did?
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Jun 12, 2020 11:21:56 GMT
Trippy, right?
Now, can you remember this happening when you had no sort of conscious notion of what was happening, and then again, at a later time, when you did?
I'm not sure i understand what you are asking...but at the time, I was aware of how 'reality' is arbitrarily and subectively differentiated into 'meaningful experience'. |
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muttley
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Post by muttley on Jun 12, 2020 11:29:58 GMT
Trippy, right?
Now, can you remember this happening when you had no sort of conscious notion of what was happening, and then again, at a later time, when you did?
I'm not sure i understand what you are asking...but at the time, I was aware of how 'reality' is arbitrarily and subectively differentiated into 'meaningful experience'. What I mean is that I remember having this experience when I was young, long before I had ever heard of Tolle or Zen or Niz, and then it recurred, later, after I had and a whole bunch of other water under the spiritual bridge. I can even relate to this, directly, as well, so, sort of like .. a three layer cake.  |
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Jun 12, 2020 11:34:52 GMT
again, i note that 'appearances' should not be defined as 'what appears to be the case'.
Independently arising appearances can, and does, appear to be the case.... but if Oneness is the case, then appearances aren't 'actually' independent. Their 'independence' is a trick of perception, and beyond that, even 'individualization' is a trick of perception. It's a necessary and wonderful trick, as all good tricks are.
'Appearances' is just a concept that denotes an absence of 'actual independence'.
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Jun 12, 2020 11:36:02 GMT
I'm not sure i understand what you are asking...but at the time, I was aware of how 'reality' is arbitrarily and subectively differentiated into 'meaningful experience'. What I mean is that I remember having this experience when I was young, long before I had ever heard of Tolle or Zen or Niz, and then it recurred, later, after I had and a whole bunch of other water under the spiritual bridge. I can even relate to this, directly, as well, so, sort of like .. a three layer cake. cool. All good cakes have 3 layers |
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muttley
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Post by muttley on Jun 12, 2020 11:37:26 GMT
What I mean is that I remember having this experience when I was young, long before I had ever heard of Tolle or Zen or Niz, and then it recurred, later, after I had and a whole bunch of other water under the spiritual bridge. I can even relate to this, directly, as well, so, sort of like .. a three layer cake. cool. All good cakes have 3 layers heh heh .. I don't find this experience to be insignificant. But then again - for whatever this may or may not be worth to ya' - I don't disagree that this experience, or any other, is something very different from realizing the absence of not-two. What I'd say further is that before the realization, the experience is suggestive, and afterwards, it's .. sort of .. confirmatory, in terms of the informing of mind. I'd also imagine that it's not necessarily universal, and really have no idea how common it may or may not be, and would opine that it's, ultimately, completely sideways to that realization. |
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Jun 12, 2020 11:42:44 GMT
cool. All good cakes have 3 layers heh heh .. I don't find this experience to be insignificant. But then again - for whatever this may or may not be worth to ya' - I don't disagree that this experience, or any other, is something very different from realizing the absence of not-two. What I'd say further is that before the realization, the experience is suggestive, and afterwards, it's .. sort of .. confirmatory, in terms of the informing of mind. I'd also imagine that it's not necessarily universal, and really have no idea how common it may or may not be, and would opine that it's, ultimately, completely sideways to that realization. yes, well put. And..those little words...'ultimately', and 'actually' are important to our conversations. They're easy to misuse, and easy to miss when reading, but i never use them without thought. |
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