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Post by Figgles on Oct 13, 2019 16:57:53 GMT
I think it's high time for a thread that speaks directly to this question as it's evident through some of the conversations going on here, that not everyone is on board with what specifically constitutes "a realization," what constitutes "pointing." Realization is a seeing through of mind/thought/ideation, ultimately, an absence, a subtraction of baggage/previously held to knowledge. One does not come away with new knowledge after realization, rather, he comes away absent knowledge he went in with. Below is a very good explanation of what constitutes a realization vs. an experience. The fact that it comes from Reefs, while interesting indeed, considering his recent claims that there are some realizations that result in an adding to of knowledge rather than subtracting, does not detract from the fact that in this particular quote, he really does hit on all the important points. Couldn't have said it better myself.  (If you are reading this Reefs, the bolded bits nicely speak to your latest assertions of coming away from a CC/Kensho with 'new' knowledge....your knowing that appearing people are experiencing/perceiving...the old Reefs woulda told you your CC/kensho was nothing more than a woo-woo experience....why? because you came away with new knowledge via an experience you can and have described in detail). |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2019 1:41:16 GMT
I think it's high time for a thread that speaks directly to this question as it's evident through some of the conversations going on here, that not everyone is on board with what specifically constitutes "a realization," what constitutes "pointing." Realization is a seeing through of mind/thought/ideation, ultimately, an absence, a subtraction of baggage/previously held to knowledge. One does not come away with new knowledge after realization, rather, he comes away absent knowledge he went in with. Below is a very good explanation of what constitutes a realization vs. an experience. The fact that it comes from Reefs, while interesting indeed, considering his recent claims that there are some realizations that result in an adding to of knowledge rather than subtracting, does not detract from the fact that in this particular quote, he really does hit on all the important points. Couldn't have said it better myself. (If you are reading this Reefs, the bolded bits nicely speak to your latest assertions of coming away from a CC/Kensho with 'new' knowledge....your knowing that appearing people are experiencing/perceiving...the old Reefs woulda told you your CC/kensho was nothing more than a woo-woo experience....why? because you came away with new knowledge via an experience you can and have described in detail). If you speak about peace of mind and bliss, which gets no mention, then I'll start to take you seriously. |
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Post by Figgles on Oct 14, 2019 16:08:49 GMT
I think it's high time for a thread that speaks directly to this question as it's evident through some of the conversations going on here, that not everyone is on board with what specifically constitutes "a realization," what constitutes "pointing." Realization is a seeing through of mind/thought/ideation, ultimately, an absence, a subtraction of baggage/previously held to knowledge. One does not come away with new knowledge after realization, rather, he comes away absent knowledge he went in with. Below is a very good explanation of what constitutes a realization vs. an experience. The fact that it comes from Reefs, while interesting indeed, considering his recent claims that there are some realizations that result in an adding to of knowledge rather than subtracting, does not detract from the fact that in this particular quote, he really does hit on all the important points. Couldn't have said it better myself. (If you are reading this Reefs, the bolded bits nicely speak to your latest assertions of coming away from a CC/Kensho with 'new' knowledge....your knowing that appearing people are experiencing/perceiving...the old Reefs woulda told you your CC/kensho was nothing more than a woo-woo experience....why? because you came away with new knowledge via an experience you can and have described in detail). If you speak about peace of mind and bliss, which gets no mention, then I'll start to take you seriously. It gets no mention because I am specifically speaking about what a realization is. Hint: it is not a mind state nor an arising feeling. |
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Post by Figgles on Nov 2, 2019 16:36:39 GMT
Yes, very well put. ZD clearly has conflated the informing of mind in the wake of the actual realization with the realization/seeing through itself.
and really, this is what Reefs is also doing to arrive at his "I do know." We are talking about an absence when we speak of 'not knowing,' an absence that is rooted in realizing the emptiness of all perceivables, whereas they are talking about the acquisition of and presence of knowledge.
Realization is always substractive, always results in an absence rather than the taking on of new knowledge. If one thinks he now knows something about the world that he did not know before, he's conceptualizing, NOT 'truthin'. (Remember the days way back where Reef's used that term...?).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2019 17:57:24 GMT
Yes, very well put. ZD clearly has conflated the informing of mind in the wake of the actual realization with the realization/seeing through itself. and really, this is what Reefs is also doing to arrive at his "I do know." We are talking about an absence when we speak of 'not knowing,' an absence that is rooted in realizing the emptiness of all perceivables, whereas they are talking about the acquisition of and presence of knowledge. Realization is always substractive, always results in an absence rather than the taking on of new knowledge. If one thinks he now knows something about the world that he did not know before, he's conceptualizing, NOT 'truthin'. (Remember the days way back where Reef's used that term...?). Oooops! Our prize fish has gone to ST now? Okay let me take some rest for some days! |
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Post by Figgles on Nov 2, 2019 20:47:00 GMT
Yes, very well put. ZD clearly has conflated the informing of mind in the wake of the actual realization with the realization/seeing through itself. and really, this is what Reefs is also doing to arrive at his "I do know." We are talking about an absence when we speak of 'not knowing,' an absence that is rooted in realizing the emptiness of all perceivables, whereas they are talking about the acquisition of and presence of knowledge. Realization is always substractive, always results in an absence rather than the taking on of new knowledge. If one thinks he now knows something about the world that he did not know before, he's conceptualizing, NOT 'truthin'. (Remember the days way back where Reef's used that term...?). Oooops! Our prize fish has gone to ST now? Okay let me take some rest for some days! There was just a particularly stinky sardine over there he wanted to 'clean up,' no worries.  |
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Enigma
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Post by Enigma on Nov 3, 2019 16:41:41 GMT
Yes, very well put. ZD clearly has conflated the informing of mind in the wake of the actual realization with the realization/seeing through itself. and really, this is what Reefs is also doing to arrive at his "I do know." We are talking about an absence when we speak of 'not knowing,' an absence that is rooted in realizing the emptiness of all perceivables, whereas they are talking about the acquisition of and presence of knowledge. Realization is always substractive, always results in an absence rather than the taking on of new knowledge. If one thinks he now knows something about the world that he did not know before, he's conceptualizing, NOT 'truthin'. (Remember the days way back where Reef's used that term...?). Yup. I think ZD is clinging to the feeling and knowing quality of his spiritual experiences, and while they may convey these truths in such a way that they seem like new things learned, they're just unknowings framed by mind and expressed experientially as knowings. Another problem with deriving Truth from spiritual experiences is that the feeling component may also get translated into truths. (Everything is alive!) |
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Post by Figgles on Nov 3, 2019 17:18:17 GMT
Yes, very well put. ZD clearly has conflated the informing of mind in the wake of the actual realization with the realization/seeing through itself. and really, this is what Reefs is also doing to arrive at his "I do know." We are talking about an absence when we speak of 'not knowing,' an absence that is rooted in realizing the emptiness of all perceivables, whereas they are talking about the acquisition of and presence of knowledge. Realization is always substractive, always results in an absence rather than the taking on of new knowledge. If one thinks he now knows something about the world that he did not know before, he's conceptualizing, NOT 'truthin'. (Remember the days way back where Reef's used that term...?). Yup. I think ZD is clinging to the feeling and knowing quality of his spiritual experiences, and while they may convey these truths in such a way that they seem like new things learned, they're just unknowings framed by mind and expressed experientially as knowings. Another problem with deriving Truth from spiritual experiences is that the feeling component may also get translated into truths. (Everything is alive!) Yes, precisely. That's clearly what ZD is doing. It was evident early on when he kept bringing up the profound sense of awe he felt and how he found it telling that talk of 'not knowing' of 'emptiness' was devoid of any mention of awe, beauty, gratitude. It cannot be underestimated how sneaky mind can be, how quickly it can and will jump in to claim the absence of true realization and to turn it into something for itself. And I agree completely, while this can happen even with a bare-bones, subtractive/seeing through realization that has no or very little woo-woo component, a spiritual experience makes it almost a given that mind's framing of the subtractive seeing (if there was indeed even a subtractive seeing at all) will be mistaken for realization. What I find interesting about both ZD and Reefs is that they waffle between "Everything is alive," being a pointer vs. a tangible/material knowing. It's interesting to watch as mind steps back a bit, only to then re-assert itself again. What's really happening is they are slightly stepping away from 'knowing' into 'not knowing,' but then clutching back at knowing, as obviously the idea of the entire phenomenal world as completely empty and devoid of substantive Truth, is just too much for mind to fathom. And that really is the problem here. Mind is front row center, to what they are insisting is their realization of aliveness, but to see that 'aliveness' as a perceivable, something observable, experiencable, thus, not Truthy, would have to mean mind taking a back-seat. It's no surprise really that mind doesn't want to give up a beautiful, awe-inspiring field of aliveness for 'complete emptiness.' |
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Enigma
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Post by Enigma on Nov 4, 2019 0:09:28 GMT
Yes, very well put. ZD clearly has conflated the informing of mind in the wake of the actual realization with the realization/seeing through itself. and really, this is what Reefs is also doing to arrive at his "I do know." We are talking about an absence when we speak of 'not knowing,' an absence that is rooted in realizing the emptiness of all perceivables, whereas they are talking about the acquisition of and presence of knowledge. Realization is always substractive, always results in an absence rather than the taking on of new knowledge. If one thinks he now knows something about the world that he did not know before, he's conceptualizing, NOT 'truthin'. (Remember the days way back where Reef's used that term...?). Oooops! Our prize fish has gone to ST now? Okay let me take some rest for some days! Will taking a rest get your prize fish back from ST? I didn't realize that the pet-a-frogery thread had been reopened till Figs reposted here from the thread. When I went to check it out I noticed that Figs had banned herself from the forum.  |
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Enigma
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Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Nov 4, 2019 0:16:44 GMT
Oooops! Our prize fish has gone to ST now? Okay let me take some rest for some days! There was just a particularly stinky sardine over there he wanted to 'clean up,' no worries. But there's lots of stinky sardines over there.  |
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