Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Jan 10, 2020 16:10:35 GMT
All of that, arises ephemerally within/to that which abides. You now have 3 characters in your story. All of that is character 1 It arises to that which is character 2 And that character abides in something else which is character 3. I don't think you really believe that's what's being said.
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Post by Figgles on Jan 10, 2020 17:00:09 GMT
Absent the realization and absent any reference for what Niz means when he says: "all perceivables are stains," you're just not gonna get it. Stop quoting Nisargadatta. You don't have the maturity or ripeness to be able to understand him. He is not for you at this time. It's only for the fact that I so clearly see what he saying and resonate with what he says that I offer his quotes. And I do so because I know that when I say the very same thing, perhaps in a slightly different way, you immediately scoff at it as you've written me off as not seeing clearly a long time ago, for the mere fact of my challenging you, thus, I offer his words to drive home what I am saying, assuming you won't immediate write them off. When your ego gets wounded, your immediate go-to is to discredit the messenger. You're a bit of a baby that way.
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Post by Figgles on Jan 10, 2020 17:15:58 GMT
This is a well worn point of disagreement between the two of us. Yes, I say that a person who's managed to get to the simple sanity of human adulthood and is open to questioning their nature and the nature of reality is under the influence of less existential falsity than say, a teenager obsessing about what their peers think of them and lost in a material dream of the future, or someone so cut off from their own sense of being that they commit violent acts, or someone petrified of death because of illness. SR is binary, but the existential delusion is a matter of degree. Ah yes. We do very much disagree then; Existential delusion is not a matter of degree any more than SR is a matter of degree. Unless one has seen the entirety of the realm of perceivables to be absent inherent, independent existence, he's still caught up in the dream. It's a bit like pregnancy; You can't be just a 'little bit' asleep/deluded. I would say there are degrees of 'sanity,' and that's what you are refencing. But those degrees are still well 'in the dream,' and have little to do with 'beyond' other than a higher degree of sanity may indicate a higher probability of sincerity/interest to look and see what's really going on. If there is truly sincerity, honest interest in looking at what's actually going on, there's greater potential than merely having a CC/mystical experience. And I don't think seeing clearly, seeing the dream for a dream in particular, is 'insignificant' at all. But yes, if we're talking Truth, mystical experiences are insignificant, and even moreso, because of their specialness, all too easy to get deeply attached to. That's why I say it's a bit of a curse really to have a powerful CC/mystical experience in tandem with a glimpse of Truth. Look at ZD...and Reefs. They're anchored within the dream-scape by special dream-content, convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that the experience conveyed Truth. I've never told someone who is sincerely looking for advice, snidely or otherwise, that they have much to learn and how much more enlightened I am than they. My advice to those who SAY the want the the Truth, is to sincerely look within to assess what their most primal interests/intents really are; Are they looking for something for the person or is there a sense there of willingness to surrender...to give it all up....to want Truth at all costs...? Sincerity; That's what underpins sincere seeking and if it's absent, what we have is a person who is mostly interested in self betterment. And that too is okay! And I have some very specific advice if that turns out to be what they really are after.
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Post by Figgles on Jan 10, 2020 17:20:35 GMT
The problem you are having grasping this, centers around you taking one specific, singular appearance, to focus upon. The 'not knowing' that has been spoken of, pertains to the entire realm of perceivables, not just appearing people, apparent sentience, but the entirety of experiential content. All of it, appearance only....dream-content...story content. (take your pick of what metaphor you prefer...none is perfect by any means.) The story content in it's entirety, people included, is seen to be appearance only, nothing within the story can convey the Truth of the matter. Apparent sentience of appearing people is but one facet within that entire realm of appearance. Despite having been realized to be devoid of Truth, the story still compels and engages. How could it not? Fwiw, this body/mind is also a facet of that realm of 'appearance only.' All of that, arises ephemerally within/to that which abides. To say that there are no consequences to seeing all appearances to be devoid of Truth is essentially the same as saying there is no consequence to seeing through separation. In seeking Truth in what appears, one is obviously still fast asleep. Thus, We're talking freedom...awakening....the realization of Self. Do you regard that to be of any importance? Yes, the realization need not have practical applications in terms of self improvement/life experience before it is accepted as true. It is not a 'mental position only' just because others are not being looked at suspiciously as perhaps not 'real', whatever that means. Embodying that truth has consequences on a more profound level.Yes, well said! (lol...once again, you made my point, that took me paragraphs to make, and made it crystal clear in one sentence ) Nice.
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Post by Figgles on Jan 10, 2020 17:57:42 GMT
And just to be clear Reefs, while the real consequences are indeed on a more profound level than what you are focusing upon, those real consequences do very much bleed into day to day life experience.
In seeing the entire perceivable world as an arising within/to that which abides, empty and devoid of independent inherent substance, the shackles of the world, are removed. no small thing at all.
If we want to get very specific as to how that impacts relationship with appearing people, I can describe; In general there is an openness to all possibilities....people and their respective personalities are not regarded to be set, fixed, carved in stone, rather there's openness to change, drastic change.....complete change.
That openness means there's a fluidity to all relationships where each person is seen to be an integral appearing facet within a singular movement that is unfolding, freely, dancing as it will, absent any sense of need for control or directing by a person. While there is still caring and deep love for appearing people, for the entire world actually, the relationships experienced, they are not tightly held to..they are not coveted...but rather, they are allowed to unfold in an environment of allowance/acceptance and surrender to whatever will appear, whenever it will appear.
I know for you, 'love for others' is very much dependent upon your absolute, unquestionable knowing of them to be experiencing, perceiving, but should you ever see past that, you will find that if anything, that knowing and all other knowings that are in tandem with that, relative to the people in your experience, have only added conditions to your love, rather than detracted.
It is in the absence of absolute knowing about, the absence of identification with perceivables/form (the two go hand in hand) that the entire realm of appearances can be unconditionally embraced and loved as a singular unfolding of utter, pristine, perfection. What your missing is that your absolute knowing about the world, is what keeps you in shackles.
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Jan 10, 2020 19:06:09 GMT
You now have 3 characters in your story. All of that is character 1 It arises to that which is character 2 And that character abides in something else which is character 3. You are taking pointers and creating characters out of them. Too much minding. When will the annihilation be complete? When character 4 explodes and takes out the first three.
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Jan 10, 2020 19:08:08 GMT
Am I to take your own discussion about this here and now as evidence that you regard post moment discussion to be critical to the realizations you are referencing? No and that's because I'm the master and you are the student.
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Jan 10, 2020 19:21:53 GMT
Absent the realization and absent any reference for what Niz means when he says: "all perceivables are stains," you're just not gonna get it. Stop quoting Nisargadatta. You don't have the maturity or ripeness to be able to understand him. He is not for you at this time. Yes Master.
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Post by Figgles on Jan 10, 2020 20:38:59 GMT
You are taking pointers and creating characters out of them. Too much minding. When will the annihilation be complete? When character 4 explodes and takes out the first three. Yet, another 'mind-blowing' experience...hehe.
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Jan 10, 2020 20:57:38 GMT
Yes, the realization need not have practical applications in terms of self improvement/life experience before it is accepted as true. It is not a 'mental position only' just because others are not being looked at suspiciously as perhaps not 'real', whatever that means. Embodying that truth has consequences on a more profound level.Yes, well said! (lol...once again, you made my point, that took me paragraphs to make, and made it crystal clear in one sentence ) Nice. Well, I have your extrapolated comments to riff on.
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