Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Feb 20, 2019 16:32:12 GMT
Yup. The emphasis upon material/external change is misguided. The real gold lies in internal change. The AH teachings actually allude to this at times, but they reel folks in with the promise of getting all the material stuff they've got their hearts set upon....and so long as one has a material bent and is overly focused upon getting stuff, that message is usually going to be ignored or not heard. So there is a separation between internal and external? Okay. But unfortunately I don't know any such line. There's a distinction between internal and external. It doesn't imply separation.
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Feb 20, 2019 16:34:41 GMT
You are confusing with yourself. I'm confused about what "confusing with yourself" means.
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Post by Figgles on Feb 20, 2019 17:13:37 GMT
You meant to say when you don't have strong desire(burning desire), it would manifest soon? Is that what you meant? Yeah. pretty much. An arising preference that does not have a whole lot of personal judgement beneath it, and thus, no resistance to it's absence, usually (in my experience) just naturally unfolds into manifestation. In a general environment of acceptance/allowance, absence of resistance, desires are more the ilk of preference (an arising interest/impetus to act towards an idea that resonates), vs. burning, driving need for things to be a very particular way, and in the former there seems to be a natural and easy evolvement from that arising interest/impetus To manifestation. It's important though as I see it, not to hang your hat on the idea that absent resistance, the manifestation MUST always come. After all, The greater, more encompassing manifestation within all of that, is the sense of peace, the easy-going underlying attitude towards life in general, regardless of what should appear in form or circumstance. The key to what I'm saying here is that in acceptance/allowance, absence of resistance, the desires themselves change. They are no longer fueled by a personal view that is rife with judgements that have limitation and boundedness as their source. When that happens, preferences/wants are in synch with the trajectory already in place in terms of 'what's happening in experience.' Reefs for one talks a lot about being in alignment vs. not, being in flow vs. not. I say the easiest way to access whether or not you are in alignment, in flow, is to look directly at the desires that are arising. If they are vastly in opposition to what currently is, there are obviously ideas in play that have 'a person' behind them. Which necessarily means, 'not in alignment.' In alignment, the wants/preferences that arise are harmonious with the overriding story, not in opposition to it.
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Post by Figgles on Feb 20, 2019 18:25:40 GMT
Yup. The emphasis upon material/external change is misguided. The real gold lies in internal change. The AH teachings actually allude to this at times, but they reel folks in with the promise of getting all the material stuff they've got their hearts set upon....and so long as one has a material bent and is overly focused upon getting stuff, that message is usually going to be ignored or not heard. So there is a separation between internal and external? Okay. But unfortunately I don't know any such line. It's not an actual separation, but rather 'a distinction,' that illuminates that our emotional responses to 'what' appears shifts in an important way upon the absence of delusion. The real distinction to see here, is that between unfettered Being vs. that which arises within/to Being. In unfettered Being, there are no personal judgements hinging upon the delusion of limitation/boundedness to give rise to deep feelings of discord/resistance. Yes, it can be said that all arising feelings are themselves experiential. However, the depth of discordant feeling only extends so far when the delusion of the SVP is absent. The real important distinction is that between Being and experiential content. It's in seeing that I am that which is fundamental to experience vs. some-thing that is arising in experience..it is that realization that renders the Separate volitional person a goner. Absent the SVP, the deep judgements about life/the world in general, that give rise to deep and encompassing ideas about limitation, fall away. Your insistence that 'how' you feel towards an arising circumstance/thing, is inextricable from the arising thing, negates the idea that realization has an important impact upon 'how' we feel towards and about life in general. SR is not itself an experience, but it absolutely does impact experience. Our entire view of life, experience, the world as a whole, shifts dramatically and this shift greatly impacts the degree to which we then judge, how we regard it. The ways in which we regard the world as a whole, impact the feelings that arise in response to what manifests. One who has seen the underlying perfection of the whole ball-o-wax, is going to regard specific happenings differently than one who has not.
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Post by Figgles on Feb 20, 2019 18:35:33 GMT
Just want to expand on this one a bit, cause it's such a good point. The very interest in controlling life, controlling outcomes, has that same illusion at its basis. That said, there is a difference between wanting to control outcomes vs. preferring a particular outcome. The main difference being 'wanting to control' indicates that one believes in personal control, that there is such a thing AS control, whereas, merely preferring a particular outcome, doesn't. The moment one starts desiring to control outcome, a preference has obviously been infused with the illusion of personal control. Absent a desire to personally control outcomes, there'd be no interest in practicing LOA. If there is a preference, then you are expecting the movie to be unfolded in a particular way no matter whether you have desire to achieve it or not. No, the presence of a preference does not necessarily mean I'm expecting things to unfold in particular way. A preference simply reflects my underlying personal values. I 'prefer' to sleep in in the morning, for example, but my current schedule and those things I also value that require my sticking to that schedule, mean that at this juncture, I must get up early. I'm okay with getting up early, but still would prefer to sleep in. Preferences, likes, dislikes still arise post SR and are not a problem. It's burning needs, deep aversions that hinge upon the delusion of separation, limitation, boundedness, that are.
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Post by Figgles on Feb 20, 2019 18:46:48 GMT
But when you use the term 'rearrange itself' haven't you been alluding specifically to the world of form vs. our more 'internal' interpretations of things? Seems to me you've insisted that certain happenings are necessarily and objectively 'horrific.' (rape for example) and thus, if/when it arises in experience, it will always, necessarily be interpreted as a 'horror' and suffering will undoubtedly ensue in the face of that happening, because of that. You don't seem to allow for a transcendent view when it comes to those happenings that are most extreme. I think you DO agree that there IS a view where it can be seen that fundamentally all is perfect as is, but then you seem to go back on that, saying there are certain happenings/circumstances for which that does not apply. Not sure If I'm understanding you fully yet or not.... am still trying to understand. I am not saying some specific occurrence as horrific, the event which is horrific for you need not to be horrific for me, your inner conditioning would define whether it's horrific for you or not. So change in you is change in the whole. Not only in your inner! Cheers! SR may not completely annihilate ALL conditioning, but it does mean that conditioning if it still exists, no longer has the power to drag us so deeply into the story that we forget who and what we really are. And that's what judging something to be a 'horror', that's what 'suffering,' entails; getting dragged so deeply into the arising story, that we temporarily forget that it is just a story. You seem to be saying that regardless of SR, there will always be some specific happening that has the ability to pull you into the story so deeply you temporarily lose sight of the realized Self. I am saying that IF SR is continuous, abiding, regardless of what happens in experience, you will not lose sight of Self. Which means, regardless of what happens, you do not fall into the story so deeply that you judge stuff to be 'horrific'...thereby 'suffering.'
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Post by Figgles on Feb 20, 2019 18:49:47 GMT
I agreed, but what do you mean here? You meant to say when you don't have strong desire(burning desire), it would manifest soon? Is that what you meant? It's about being aligned with the flow of creation. Yes. Exactly. Succinctly said. (lol....love how I had to write paragraphs to say what you said in one sentence).
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Feb 21, 2019 0:07:08 GMT
Just want to expand on this one a bit, cause it's such a good point. The very interest in controlling life, controlling outcomes, has that same illusion at its basis. That said, there is a difference between wanting to control outcomes vs. preferring a particular outcome. The main difference being 'wanting to control' indicates that one believes in personal control, that there is such a thing AS control, whereas, merely preferring a particular outcome, doesn't. The moment one starts desiring to control outcome, a preference has obviously been infused with the illusion of personal control. Absent a desire to personally control outcomes, there'd be no interest in practicing LOA. If there is a preference, then you are expecting the movie to be unfolded in a particular way no matter whether you have desire to achieve it or not. Not sure what you're trying to say here. Preference doesn't imply expectation.
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Feb 21, 2019 0:10:43 GMT
I know. Creation does 'rearrange itself' to an extent. Everybody has agreed with you multiple times. Do you understand where the disagreement is? You made it very clear in this line, So I don't think we have some kind of disagreement in this place, I wrongly argued with you so far by believing that you say something other way around. OK
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Feb 21, 2019 0:30:30 GMT
It's about being aligned with the flow of creation. Yes. Exactly. Succinctly said. (lol....love how I had to write paragraphs to say what you said in one sentence). Your explanation has a much better chance of getting through to Gopal. My brevity was mostly out of laziness.
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