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Post by Figgles on Mar 16, 2018 4:34:40 GMT
To speak of "quality" is to determine that the context is material. Prior to mind, prior to expression, no 'quality.' Right, no quality. And while there are different ways that knowing can come about, it always involves the individuated mind, and therefore cannot be prior to mind. Yes indeed. That seems so obvious, I don't understand how it could escape seeing.....I think that Andrew in particular looks for, assumes complexity instead of just getting quiet and looking at what can actually be seen.
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Post by Figgles on Mar 16, 2018 4:57:13 GMT
"Everything" that appears in experience, is of the mind. There is no getting away from that.....'things' appear to I am/existence. So of course, the qualities you see to be assigned to 'things' that appear to you, are of the mind......an actual "realization" transcends mind, transcends the material.
...it's a context mix to say that you've realized certain material information, certain traits, qualities that pertain to the material, to be true.
The realization that it's all empty, that I do not know about the appearing person, is actually the seeing through of all material knowledge....it's just the affirmative stating of the absence of knowledge about 'things' that appear. Not a presence of knowledge about the material, as your knowing is.
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Mar 16, 2018 22:53:34 GMT
"Everything" that appears in experience, is of the mind. There is no getting away from that.....'things' appear to I am/existence. So of course, the qualities you see to be assigned to 'things' that appear to you, are of the mind......an actual "realization" transcends mind, transcends the material. ...it's a context mix to say that you've realized certain material information, certain traits, qualities that pertain to the material, to be true. The realization that it's all empty, that I do not know about the appearing person, is actually the seeing through of all material knowledge....it's just the affirmative stating of the absence of knowledge about 'things' that appear. Not a presence of knowledge about the material, as your knowing is. Zackly.
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Post by Figgles on Mar 17, 2018 21:27:15 GMT
Exactamente! (Somenothing is absolutely spot on imo, in all his responses in this exchange...demonstrates precisely where Andrew goes into TMT....In his mind, it absolutely HAS TO BE either/or....THAT right there, indicates mind attempting to treat where it has no place.)
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Post by Figgles on Mar 17, 2018 21:41:18 GMT
First of all, To experience the appearing person as consciously self aware, is not the equivalent of 'knowing that he is in fact consciously self aware.'
Post awakening, experience/appearance is no longer conflated with certain knowing. Post awakening, it is crystal clear that experiential content is not reliable...not Truthy.
And secondly, just because there's an absence of certain knowing that an appearance is alive and conscious does not therefore mean that I know appearing content to be 'material and deadened.'
You keep arriving at these either/or, mind based conclusions that indicate way TMT here. You keep trying to wrestle it all down intellectually, conceptually.
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Post by Figgles on Mar 18, 2018 2:02:53 GMT
Seeing A sort of metaphorical 'aliveness' in the totality, is not the same thing as knowing that each appearing 'thing' is consciously self aware.
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Post by Figgles on Mar 18, 2018 15:44:36 GMT
Well said. Gotta say, I'm baffled that this is even being questioned. For Reefs in particular, I thought the whole issue of SR involving a loss/seeing through/unknowing of previously known stuff, was a no brainer. Now he's arguing for special experiences where he comes away with firm knowings about experiential content tucked away in his suitcase...? I don't get it.
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Post by Figgles on Mar 18, 2018 17:03:34 GMT
Yes! The word 'know' gets tossed around and used by people in an extremely casual and cavalier way. And there's a reason for that. Prior to SR, it's taken for granted that we know all sorts of stuff....our minds are quite literally stuffed with knowledge, all sorts of things that we assume to be true, simply because it's experienced that way. Nonduality, SR, awakening to the Truth, is ALL about seeing through all that shit (and I use that particular word here, with purpose! )... It's about seeing that the suitcase of knowledge that we've been carting around with us, relying upon, never questioning, never looking at, hs been unnecessary baggage, all along. (Baggage that has been tainting life in it's entirety....weighing it down...muddying the waters).
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Post by Figgles on Mar 18, 2018 18:39:03 GMT
This argument about the absence of knowing when it comes to appearing people, has so, so aptly demonstrated for me just how uncompromising the seeing through of knowledge has to be. There is absolutely no room AT ALL for compromise in actual awakening.
Even the most sacred, cherished gems have to go.
So long as one who regards himself to be awake is still hanging on to 'some' of his most cherished ideas, some of his knowings as true, he is but dreaming about being awake.....he is still lost to/within the dream of conceptual knowledge.
The vehemence with which most will try to hold to their most precious, vestigial knowings, is itself a testament the tenacity of the belief in separate person-hood.
Those who speak as though they are, but who continue to hold to specific knowings simply because they had an exceptionally compelling experience that seemed to be more real and true than any experience they ever had before, are by that very fact of continuing to be bamboozled by 'dream content,' still obviously, snoozin.
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Mar 19, 2018 0:34:04 GMT
Yes! The word 'know' gets tossed around and used by people in an extremely casual and cavalier way. And there's a reason for that. Prior to SR, it's taken for granted that we know all sorts of stuff....our minds are quite literally stuffed with knowledge, all sorts of things that we assume to be true, simply because it's experienced that way. Nonduality, SR, awakening to the Truth, is ALL about seeing through all that shit (and I use that particular word here, with purpose! )... It's about seeing that the suitcase of knowledge that we've been carting around with us, relying upon, never questioning, never looking at, hs been unnecessary baggage, all along. (Baggage that has been tainting life in it's entirety....weighing it down...muddying the waters). It's as though peeps don't actually believe that not knowing is to be applied to what we think we know about everything day to day. It's not something that only happens in deep meditation. Most peeps think they're going to convince me by showing me better physical evidence, like a video or a scientific paper.
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