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Post by Figgles on Jan 7, 2024 18:53:18 GMT
Nope...you take issue with the very word "appearance" never mind if it's qualified with "empty." For you, all appearing, experiential content is anything but empty/devoid of inherent existence...instead, you imagine it to be chock "full" of/infused with the ooey, gooey, Oh-so-Alive, substantive paste of "Absolute-existence.
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Post by Figgles on Jan 7, 2024 18:58:39 GMT
The (s)elf identified love that pointer as it allows them to keep the SVP AND conceptually kick the idea of personal limitation/boundedness to the curb, which is of course a mind-game...a complete nonsense. Unless "emptiness" has been realized via a shift in locus of seeing that is SR, meaning, there is now an absence where previously there was an erroneously imagined presence, the pointer "form is emptiness and emptiness is form" is going to get conceptualized and mistaken for the toothpaste factory.
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Post by Figgles on Jan 7, 2024 19:10:32 GMT
BS!
You just said there that you agree with Tenkas attitude towards the dream metaphor. He clearly DOES have a problem with it. He argues against it quite frequently.
The view from integrated 3rd mountain position renders ALL experiential content, be it a memory of a past event or be it an imminent bite into a lemon as equally "dream-content."
You're still asleep in the dream, thinking that being awake means being able to distinguish a memory of biting into a lemon from an imminent direct experience of such. That's psychology...self help....becoming more conscious of mind's machinations...waking up from the consensus trance...all good and fine stuff for those still mired in the dream/seeking relative comfort...relative freedom.
The realization of Truth though......SR, actual freedom/liberation, hinges upon a radical shift in locus of seeing that completely and totally "beyond/prior to" ALL content....ALL perceivables.
Both the memory of eating a lemon and the imminent, direct biting into of a lemon, fall under the heading of "perceivables."
Niz: "All perceivables are stains." (Please note...he is not denigrating perceivables there...just pointing to the distinction between that which abides and can stand alone, vs. that which is ephemeral and depends upon the abiding for it's temporal appearance.)
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Post by Figgles on Jan 9, 2024 18:54:13 GMT
Unless this has been realized (2nd mountain realization)...unless the sense of being a someone/something that exists "In" an existent world, the pointer/assertion "I am all of it," (3rd mountain realization/integration of emptiness) is necessarily still going to be laden with the identification of imagined separation.
In the shift in locus of seeing that is SR, there is no such thing as "leaping over 2nd mountain seeing," as a train might jump a track....just doesn't work that way...unless that realization of inherent emptiness has been fully apprehended, "There is only what I am/I am all of it," can only be a mere conceptualization of what is referenced with the term "Oneness/not-two."
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Post by Figgles on Jan 10, 2024 21:21:56 GMT
There is no "process" to "finding answers to existential/Absolute questions." Only realization/seeing through (a radical shift in locus of seeing from the person's eyes/in the dream, to beyond) will do. And there really IS only ONE answer and that is "not-two"...the temporal arises within/to the singularly existent. That is revealed as the locus of seeing shifts primarily TO the abidingly existent. (ground of awareness).
The shift in locus of seeing that equals the seeing through/absence of separation, does NOT provide mind-satisfying, Absolute answers to existential questions, asked from within the relative context... rather, it reveals the questioner to be part and parcel of the imagined SVP, and thus, the questions cease...they are seen to be misconceived.
It is only an SVP that tries to find Absolute answers to relative questions that have their basis in the delusion of separation.
All an SVP's erroneous, misconceived questions are attempts to apprehend Absolute answers via relative questions. The SVP erroneously thinks the questions are about the Absolute, but from that vantage point, there is no reference for the pointer Absolute. The SVP can only imagine what the Absolute is, and it's from that erroneous, false imagining that the erroneous, misconceived existential questions arise.
If you've received satisfying answers to ALL the existential questions you had a seeker....hate to tell you this ZD, but that makes it pretty clear, you're STILL a seeker!
Existential questions of the seeker don't get answered, they get revealed as misconceived.
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Post by Figgles on Jan 10, 2024 21:34:09 GMT
ZD, you missing the gist of what Gopal is saying...the "gold" in the message!
The very "motivation" to find truth = a search for "something other than what IS, here, right now."
You are positing the motivation itself as causal, when if you look closely, that motivation is but a demonstration of the erroneous sense of separation that must be seen through, in order for the Truth to shine forth.
In the end, it matters not one iota what the specific idea or "motivation" was behind seeking....it's the seeking that is indicative of the presence of "a seeker/an SVP." It's only when that SVP/all separation is seen through that the seeking ends and freedom reigns.
All these various stories about what led up to awakening/SR are red herrings...they just give the seeker a bigger rope to hang onto....when what really needs to happen is the rope needs to disappear...get seen through.
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Post by Figgles on Jan 10, 2024 21:38:50 GMT
I think ZD has been very short-sighted in his inquiry into the "whys" of his seeking for Truth. His pride also plays a part in what has him declaring it to be mere curiosity...the emotional disharmony/discomfort of a seeker and of the seeking movement itself can be subtle in comparison to overt suffering/despair and thus, goes unseen in those who aren't adept at really looking AT mind-content and feelings.
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Post by Figgles on Jan 10, 2024 23:32:07 GMT
Described perfectly.
And while you're spot on that it's a more "subtle" form of suffering than what most think of when they hear the term term suffering or "despair," where there is seeking "to know the existential Truth," that seeking if you look close, IS driven by a sense of "intolerability" towards the sense of "not being in the know/being in the dark." It's a 'strong' drive, that one, to know what is actually SO...even though it completely based on a misconception.
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Post by Figgles on Jan 10, 2024 23:42:24 GMT
It's about as "personal" as you can get! Absent the imagined, separate, volitional "person," there would be no-thing apparently hidden...nothing at all TO know that wasn't already shining forth brightly and obviously.
It's interesting that you even draw an important divide/distinction between so called "psychological" pain from negative thoughts about self...or wanting to escape some situation judged by mind to BE "hellish." The delusion/misconception behind that is after all the very same one that's behind the seeking to know something other than/beyond what imminently presents.
Those negative judgments and thoughts that directly pertain to self are not so very different than the judgment that had you arriving at the sense of separation...one & the same in terms of mind's erroneous judgments and assignments.
You've continued to describe how you still travel around to attend various Nonduality/spiritual teachers satsangs and talks and you've characterized that as 'just something you enjoy doing' but If you look deeper, there is obviously a sense of something missing there....something still awaiting to be known/grasped. The fact that you continue to seek out Nonduality teachings in person, traveling here and there speaks volumes and it's clear you're not really looking "at" mind content where that's concerned...glossing over the sense of something remaining amiss...something "more" to know...
Arising interests, intentions are impacted...they shift in SR. One of the main ways is that the interest in seeking for Truth dissolves.
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Post by Figgles on Jan 11, 2024 0:19:26 GMT
What the heck IS a strong, driving 'sense of wanting' that compels seeking towards finding/having what is currently deemed to absent/not here, if NOT a strong sense of lack/limitation?....of things being judged to be not as they "should" be? If you were truly content with HERE/Now/THIS, there'd be no seeking for understanding/something else.....a driving movement to seek knowledge is something different than just a question momentarily popping up and then dissipating.
There's a world of difference between existential seeking and trying to figure out a math problem. The existential seeking..the drive for an Absolute answer that will satisfy mind's questions of 'how/why/what' fundamentally IS, is based off of a misconception, whereas the drive to solve the math question, is not. Relatively speaking, there IS a mind-satisfying answer to the question of 'what is 2 + 2'?
What's happened is that you've erroneously arrived at mind-satisfying answers to your existential questions and you've mistaken those for actual Truth. They are not. And the problem is, only a true "realization/seeing through" will reveal that.
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