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Post by Figgles on Feb 24, 2021 17:16:14 GMT
Right, so.. A thought manifests An action manifests (not because of or related to the thought An outcome manifests They are not linked. It all just happens but ‘mind-story’ fills in the blanks? I would say thoughts/actions/outcome manifestations ARE 'linked' as in "correlated," in terms of the experiential, sequential story, it's "actual causation" that's not the case. & yeah, In a given moment, where mind strings it all together, all of it, relates.
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Post by Figgles on Feb 24, 2021 17:21:13 GMT
Talking to myself now but I am now thinking (therein lies the problem no doubt) about my hubby at work. He works in sales and just told me he’s closing on somr deals. Surely him working hard manifests that outcome? The calls, the technique? One most cause the other??? In relative terms, one thing seems to lead to another, and, in practical terms, it's silly to deny that this is happening. It's just that in the bigger picture, anything you posit as a cause is ultimately also an effect. Now, in practical terms, you husband gets paid his commission because he is recognized as an indispensable cause of the effect of the sale. But, think it through. How many other events beside what your husband did had to happen to lead up to the outcome? Ultimately, any set of events that you want to define as causal are arbitrary. To paraphrase Niz, the entirety of eternity ever conspires to create each and every sensation you feel in the moment, which is ever ephemeral. Every ray of sunlight or starlight that ever hit the Earth, every blade of grass that ever grew and withered, every drop of rain that ever fell, all add up to your body/mind on this Earth in this moment reading the words of this sentence.
That's the 'in the story' view. A ray of sunshine that is not right here, right now, directly felt as shining on face or experienced as shining through my window, is an idea about a past event only. Past events only ever appear as a NOW idea/thought/memory.
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muttley
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Post by muttley on Feb 24, 2021 20:43:07 GMT
In relative terms, one thing seems to lead to another, and, in practical terms, it's silly to deny that this is happening. It's just that in the bigger picture, anything you posit as a cause is ultimately also an effect. Now, in practical terms, you husband gets paid his commission because he is recognized as an indispensable cause of the effect of the sale. But, think it through. How many other events beside what your husband did had to happen to lead up to the outcome? Ultimately, any set of events that you want to define as causal are arbitrary. To paraphrase Niz, the entirety of eternity ever conspires to create each and every sensation you feel in the moment, which is ever ephemeral. Every ray of sunlight or starlight that ever hit the Earth, every blade of grass that ever grew and withered, every drop of rain that ever fell, all add up to your body/mind on this Earth in this moment reading the words of this sentence.
That's the 'in the story' view. A ray of sunshine that is not right here, right now, directly felt as shining on face or experienced as shining through my window, is an idea about a past event only. Past events only ever appear as a NOW idea/thought/memory. I don't disagree with that, but blades of grass don't spontaneously appear fully grown. A story is an abstraction, an interpretation, so you can interpret that sentence - or any sentence involving time that way, but only if you ignore the pointing of it. It helps if you don't take that sentence out of the context of the paragraph.
Our disagreement on this topic is well established: I do not call time, an illusion.
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Esponja
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Post by Esponja on Feb 24, 2021 22:29:17 GMT
Talking to myself now but I am now thinking (therein lies the problem no doubt) about my hubby at work. He works in sales and just told me he’s closing on somr deals. Surely him working hard manifests that outcome? The calls, the technique? One most cause the other??? But there's no doer! no free will! clearly your husband is suffering from the delusions of a SVP! taking credit for deals he didn't make! You see that made no sense until last night. I see now, There’s no centre to take ownership.
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Esponja
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Post by Esponja on Feb 24, 2021 22:38:26 GMT
It is soooo hard to get my head around this... I see that time is an illusion. I can’t go back to the past or forward to the future. The thoughts exist in my mind. Am trying to look at my body aging and know that it was younger, yet that is a memory, yet it does change.. (head spinning!!) So a thought appears now, that says.. ‘I have a new job’ (for example) then you get a new job and this type of thing happens many times, is it your mind that invents the inbetween bit up? I.E...I will manifest a job, I will visualise and meditate and intend, I got the job, the manifesting worked) Time isn't an illusion, it's just change, which is undeniable. It's just that nothing that changes, nothing that is ephemeral, nothing that comes and goes, is the ultimate absolute limitless reality that you really are, and which you can always get in touch with by the simple but sometimes subtle fact of your awareness of being aware. So, while time isn't an illusion, it's also not exactly what it appears to be, either.
You can't visit the past, but in limited, relative, philosophical terms, there are many ways to explain why that is. As far as the future is concerned, it's an inevitability. But, of course, when tomorrow arrives, it will do so in the guise, of today. The future is inevitable? Not if I died today I guess. That’s the first time I’ve heard Time isn’t an illusion too. Yes change happens, in the moment, tomorrow is a word that helps us communicate. I always struggled with the pointer of awareness being aware, This isn’t of mind, yet you seem to need mind to work it out.
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Esponja
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Post by Esponja on Feb 24, 2021 22:42:51 GMT
That's the 'in the story' view. A ray of sunshine that is not right here, right now, directly felt as shining on face or experienced as shining through my window, is an idea about a past event only. Past events only ever appear as a NOW idea/thought/memory. I don't disagree with that, but blades of grass don't spontaneously appear fully grown. A story is an abstraction, an interpretation, so you can interpret that sentence - or any sentence involving time that way, but only if you ignore the pointing of it. It helps if you don't take that sentence out of the context of the paragraph.
Our disagreement on this topic is well established: I do not call time, an illusion.
It’s the hear and now. I don’t even know what exists outside my room unless my mind tells me.
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muttley
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Post by muttley on Feb 24, 2021 22:52:13 GMT
Time isn't an illusion, it's just change, which is undeniable. It's just that nothing that changes, nothing that is ephemeral, nothing that comes and goes, is the ultimate absolute limitless reality that you really are, and which you can always get in touch with by the simple but sometimes subtle fact of your awareness of being aware. So, while time isn't an illusion, it's also not exactly what it appears to be, either.
You can't visit the past, but in limited, relative, philosophical terms, there are many ways to explain why that is. As far as the future is concerned, it's an inevitability. But, of course, when tomorrow arrives, it will do so in the guise, of today. The future is inevitable? Not if I died today I guess. That’s the first time I’ve heard Time isn’t an illusion too. Yes change happens, in the moment, tomorrow is a word that helps us communicate. I always struggled with the pointer of awareness being aware, This isn’t of mind, yet you seem to need mind to work it out. Awareness of being aware is either effortless, or, it's not what the phrase is pointing to. Mind can only ever appear to interrupt it. Oh but, that would just be your future, your personal future, not the appearance of the future, in the impersonal sense.
For me, an illusion is something that can be denied. Time has no existential value, any more than anything else that appears to you. But it seems to me silly to deny that time seems to pass, and if we need a definition, it can be defined very simply as the process of change. Can we deny the appearance of change?
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muttley
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Post by muttley on Feb 24, 2021 22:56:01 GMT
I don't disagree with that, but blades of grass don't spontaneously appear fully grown. A story is an abstraction, an interpretation, so you can interpret that sentence - or any sentence involving time that way, but only if you ignore the pointing of it. It helps if you don't take that sentence out of the context of the paragraph.
Our disagreement on this topic is well established: I do not call time, an illusion.
It’s the hear and now. I don’t even know what exists outside my room unless my mind tells me. Right, but just because you don't know about it does it mean that there's nothing there? Existence is a weighty word. The only thing that exists is the self that you are that must be realized. All else is an appearance that is reflective of "that", and has no existence in it's own independent right.
But, just because all form and time is relative, and thereby dependent in this way, doesn't mean it's not appearing to you. These appearances aren't limited to the field of your personal sensation and memory.
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Esponja
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Post by Esponja on Feb 24, 2021 23:08:55 GMT
The future is inevitable? Not if I died today I guess. That’s the first time I’ve heard Time isn’t an illusion too. Yes change happens, in the moment, tomorrow is a word that helps us communicate. I always struggled with the pointer of awareness being aware, This isn’t of mind, yet you seem to need mind to work it out. Awareness of being aware is either effortless, or, it's not what the phrase is pointing to. Mind can only ever appear to interrupt it. Oh but, that would just be your future, your personal future, not the appearance of the future, in the impersonal sense.
For me, an illusion is something that can be denied. Time has no existential value, any more than anything else that appears to you. But it seems to me silly to deny that time seems to pass, and if we need a definition, it can be defined very simply as the process of change. Can we deny the appearance of change?
I see it as there being 2 ways to look. Through the SVP or not. You can’t negate any of it as being real as much as you can admit there is only here and now.
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Esponja
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Post by Esponja on Feb 24, 2021 23:10:59 GMT
It’s the hear and now. I don’t even know what exists outside my room unless my mind tells me. Right, but just because you don't know about it does it mean that there's nothing there? Existence is a weighty word. The only thing that exists is the self that you are that must be realized. All else is an appearance that is reflective of "that", and has no existence in it's own independent right.
But, just because all form and time is relative, and thereby dependent in this way, doesn't mean it's not appearing to you. These appearances aren't limited to the field of your personal sensation and memory.
I hate that I spelt ‘hear not here’ haha am on a small screen. Same as my other reply. It all exists but it doesn’t. Seems like a paradox, don’t think you need to deny either just acknowledge the two points of viewing that exist.
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