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Post by Gopal on Mar 4, 2021 11:21:33 GMT
Only awareness exist, that's me. Meaning of personal me or impersonal me looses it's grip for me because I am the ultimate witness to whom appearance are floating one after another. Your insistence that some of those appearances are actually "causal" to others, contradicts that. I did not say one appearance is causing another one. Consciousness is responding that way. If I jump, then I will be pulled back. Here the appearance of jumping is responded by perception of pulled back by consciousness(Nothingness out of which everything is arising).
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Post by Gopal on Mar 4, 2021 15:50:09 GMT
We just had a dialog about it less than a few weeks back. Wait awhile. Yes, but I feel like you are seeing a division which actually doesn't exist.
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Post by Figgles on Mar 4, 2021 16:16:34 GMT
Your insistence that some of those appearances are actually "causal" to others, contradicts that. I did not say one appearance is causing another one. Consciousness is responding that way. If I jump, then I will be pulled back. Here the appearance of jumping is responded by perception of pulled back by consciousness(Nothingness out of which everything is arising). Which would mean that there is something then, 'responding' or in other words, 'causing/catalyzing.' That's yet another in the dream idea. It doesn't matter how subtly you change the terms. The Truth is there is no-thing that is 'responding.' It's all one, singular seamless movement...no separate something catalyzing any distinctly appearing 'part' of it.
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Post by Figgles on Mar 4, 2021 19:08:25 GMT
It only seems like nonsense because you're still seeing from within the dream. You are intent upon proving there is causation within the dream, so you have latched onto the idea that 'separation causes suffering,' to try to catch me out and score your point. You don't seem to have much interest in Truth...liberation. The problem is, you don't seem to grasp what 'suffering' is...what constitutes the experience of suffering. The experience of imagining you are a separate someone who is limited, bound, guilty, responsible, needy, IS the experience of suffering. No point in discussing with you if you say separation is not causing the suffering. That's the major point all the spiritual people accept it. That's what I say theoretically thinking over these things wouldn't work. Have to face the reality directly which you have never done it. How are you defining 'suffering'? Is it something other than 'imagined limitation, an imagined entity, imagined objectively existent world'? That's what separation IS. So to say then that separation 'causes' suffering, is akin to saying 'imagined limitation, imagined entity, imagined objectively existent world' causes one to feel that he is a limited entity, existing within an objectively existent world. The 'imagining' of separation is not something different than the 'feeling/experience of' separation. I would not be stressing the fact that imagined separation is not actually causal to suffering but for the fact that you are intent upon making the point that there IS causation within the dream. Most who use that term 'separation causes suffering,' are not using it to deny the illusion of causation. It's just a term used to denote that absent imagined separation, suffering is also absent..that the two are actually one & the same.
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Post by Gopal on Mar 4, 2021 19:38:22 GMT
No point in discussing with you if you say separation is not causing the suffering. That's the major point all the spiritual people accept it. That's what I say theoretically thinking over these things wouldn't work. Have to face the reality directly which you have never done it. How are you defining 'suffering'? Is it something other than 'imagined limitation, an imagined entity, imagined objectively existent world'? That's what separation IS. So to say then that separation 'causes' suffering, is akin to saying 'imagined limitation, imagined entity, imagined objectively existent world' causes one to feel that he is a limited entity, existing within an objectively existent world. The 'imagining' of separation is not something different than the 'feeling/experience of' separation. I would not be stressing the fact that imagined separation is not actually causal to suffering but for the fact that you are intent upon making the point that there IS causation within the dream. Most who use that term 'separation causes suffering,' are not using it to deny the illusion of causation. It's just a term used to denote that absent imagined separation, suffering is also absent..that the two are actually one & the same. I am unfortunately not ready to hear your new found theories. So let's disagree.
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Post by Gopal on Mar 4, 2021 19:39:19 GMT
I did not say one appearance is causing another one. Consciousness is responding that way. If I jump, then I will be pulled back. Here the appearance of jumping is responded by perception of pulled back by consciousness(Nothingness out of which everything is arising). Which would mean that there is something then, 'responding' or in other words, 'causing/catalyzing.' That's yet another in the dream idea. It doesn't matter how subtly you change the terms. The Truth is there is no-thing that is 'responding.' It's all one, singular seamless movement...no separate something catalyzing any distinctly appearing 'part' of it. One day you will seethe truth that consciousness is creating the reality. I will wait until then.
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Post by Figgles on Mar 4, 2021 19:54:17 GMT
Which would mean that there is something then, 'responding' or in other words, 'causing/catalyzing.' That's yet another in the dream idea. It doesn't matter how subtly you change the terms. The Truth is there is no-thing that is 'responding.' It's all one, singular seamless movement...no separate something catalyzing any distinctly appearing 'part' of it. One day you will seethe truth that consciousness is creating the reality. I will wait until then. Perhaps one day YOU will see that consciousness is not a some-thing for which you can directly assign doership to. The term 'consciousness' is a pointer beyond all concepts...beyond any-thing that mind can imagine. You have a some-thing in mind when you use that term and that's why you assign doership directly to it.
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Post by Figgles on Mar 4, 2021 19:57:08 GMT
How are you defining 'suffering'? Is it something other than 'imagined limitation, an imagined entity, imagined objectively existent world'? That's what separation IS. So to say then that separation 'causes' suffering, is akin to saying 'imagined limitation, imagined entity, imagined objectively existent world' causes one to feel that he is a limited entity, existing within an objectively existent world. The 'imagining' of separation is not something different than the 'feeling/experience of' separation. I would not be stressing the fact that imagined separation is not actually causal to suffering but for the fact that you are intent upon making the point that there IS causation within the dream. Most who use that term 'separation causes suffering,' are not using it to deny the illusion of causation. It's just a term used to denote that absent imagined separation, suffering is also absent..that the two are actually one & the same. I am unfortunately not ready to hear your new found theories. So let's disagree. I don't think you understand what the word 'theorizing' means. It's actually, precisely what you do as you look to dream content for laws about how creation works.
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Post by someNothing on Mar 4, 2021 21:53:45 GMT
One day you will seethe truth that consciousness is creating the reality. I will wait until then. Perhaps one day YOU will see that consciousness is not a some-thing for which you can directly assign doership to. The term 'consciousness' is a pointer beyond all concepts...beyond any-thing that mind can imagine. You have a some-thing in mind when you use that term and that's why you assign doership directly to it. It certainly seems that way at times, like when he gives me certain rabbit holesque replies.
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Post by someNothing on Mar 4, 2021 22:06:42 GMT
Which would mean that there is something then, 'responding' or in other words, 'causing/catalyzing.' That's yet another in the dream idea. It doesn't matter how subtly you change the terms. The Truth is there is no-thing that is 'responding.' It's all one, singular seamless movement...no separate something catalyzing any distinctly appearing 'part' of it. One day you will seethe truth that consciousness is creating the reality. I will wait until then. Creator/Creation is one, but the distinction is absolute. Reality begins to look purely creative, rather than logical or reasonable. Of course, contextually speaking, meaning, logic, and reason have their place as mind-based tools/functions.
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