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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2019 16:13:41 GMT
It's inappropriate to talk about Ramana's death experience as a death. Actually not many people know that he had a second death experience many years later when his body did actually seem to die for a few minutes, but the experience he had when he was a teenager which led to realization of the Self was not about death. It was about life. If the body dies then the sensory capabilities are no longer available to the eternal Witness, but with his experience he simply realized that he was the eternal Witness in a living body. This is why liberation is referred to as Jivan mukti which means freedom while living in a body. I think it's better explained in the tantric tradition in terms of Shiva and Shakti. the manifestation of form and the individual ego is just an aspect of Shiva the absolute. Shakti is no different to Shiva. The important point with Self realization is that there is only one whether it appears as unmanifest or manifest. So in Vedanta, Brahman is spoken about in terms of saguna Brahman (with form) and nirguna Brahman (without form). What happened with Ramana is that he completely transcended the gunas and realized that he was unborn therefore unaffected by death of the body. But that complete dissolving of I also lead to the total integration with mind-body as the living reality of Self in Unity consciousness which is one without a second. "Die before you die" refers to the exact same thing as what you've written about before, many times, in terms of "killing the mind", or "killing the ego". It's the end of the existential illusion of personhood. The end of the recurring appearance of existential limitation.
It's not the end of the body, of breath, of aches, pains, worldly attachments such as relationships or the need to find food and shelter. But, it is the beginning of an unconventional perception of the way these appearances appear. While noone really needs the myriad of the ancient accounts of this alternative mode of perception, and those historical accounts can be confusing - especially in the theory that arises to codify them - some of that poetry is quite powerful, indeed. While the culture of this topic that's centered on the Indian subcontinent is the oldest, deepest, and in some senses, most direct and existentially clear, the English language is as good as any other to relate the nature of this perception.
But these descriptions of that perception are ultimately subjective. The existential truth will ever elude any attempt to capture it directly, definitively and with totality in any media, and the limiting factor is the very nature of duality. On the other hand, the good news is that this truth is a commonality always and ever available to anyone, so that sometimes one or more of these descriptions can resonate, and serve as a sort of existential lighthouse.
There is an emptiness, a void, an expanse, that is ever all around and permeating oneself and everything that one sees, hears, touches and tastes. Before this is revealed, the world can sometimes seem a hostile, unjust and oppressive place. Afterward, there is a certain lightness to every moment of life, just underneath the surface of all sensation, even in the cold, even in a crisis, even when life takes a wrong turn. The first discovery of this verdant country can be euphoric. One can feel though they were able to fly - not literally, of course - untethered, free, and filled with vitality. Even in the midst of of chaos, one remains grounded in an unshakable and centered inner stillness. Even in the midst of a cacophony, one's inner state, is silence.
The euphoria might last a day, a month or years. Everyone is different. But this is often temporary. For a time, after the initial revelation, and after the euphoria has faded, the connection to this grounding in the eternal can seem tenuous, and intermittent. One might find oneself constricting in fear of a sudden threat of loss. It can be an event as trivial as road rage or as grave as the potential loss of a home. In those moments, one might question what it was they experienced before, and how they might return to that state. This questioning, is, of course, an opportunity.
It is possible for this winking in-and-out to end, and for the apparent connection to the unboundedness that is reality to become an ongoing and permanent state. Not that some violence to one's head or the wrong disease can't potentially alter that state, and still leave the body alive, but that, you see, this is, indeed what it would take. For it is the emptiness from which all sensation emerges, and it is that void to which it all returns. It is this expanse that is the source of all seen and unseen, the source of what relatively little our limited human minds can understand, and the source of those mystery's we not only don't yet understand, but lack even the capacity to imagine. Once this is unveiled, in the first glimpse, it is inevitably .. enveloping.
To die before you die is to allow the last tether to the false sense of limited and material self to be broken and obliterated in the most brief and minor of flash within that source. It doesn't matter if this happens now, or even never happens until the last moment of physical life. What "happens after" physical death, is, in these days, in relative terms, one of those remaining mysteries. But, the revelation of the existential truth makes it clear that this truth is never hidden from anyone forever. For those lucky enough to catch a glimpse while they're still alive, at the very least, the reveal, at the end of the show, will come as less of a surprise.  If the question is, does that which remain after ego-death, remain after apparent physical death? The answer is yes. Only that which is born like the Ego and the bodily form that Awareness takes, dies. That which was never born cannot die. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2019 16:05:56 GMT
let's read that line The line 'the young boy died' seems like saying he died, but the following line "what remained to bear witness to his death" give us a kind of clue that he is actually not talking about physical death. But I agree with you the fact that this is poorly created line. It's inappropriate to talk about Ramana's death experience as a death. Actually not many people know that he had a second death experience many years later when his body did actually seem to die for a few minutes, but the experience he had when he was a teenager which led to realization of the Self was not about death. It was about life. If the body dies then the sensory capabilities are no longer available to the eternal Witness, but with his experience he simply realized that he was the eternal Witness in a living body. This is why liberation is referred to as Jivan mukti which means freedom while living in a body. I think it's better explained in the tantric tradition in terms of Shiva and Shakti. the manifestation of form and the individual ego is just an aspect of Shiva the absolute. Shakti is no different to Shiva. The important point with Self realization is that there is only one whether it appears as unmanifest or manifest. So in Vedanta, Brahman is spoken about in terms of saguna Brahman (with form) and nirguna Brahman (without form). What happened with Ramana is that he completely transcended the gunas and realized that he was unborn therefore unaffected by death of the body. But that complete dissolving of I also lead to the total integration with mind-body as the living reality of Self in Unity consciousness which is one without a second. Ramana didn't recognize that he was the Eternal Witness. The Eternal Witness recognized that it wasn't Ramana... The Eternal Witness recognizes that it IS and always has been free of the illusion of personhood. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2019 16:31:03 GMT
Ramana didn't recognize that he was the Eternal Witness. The Eternal Witness recognized that it wasn't Ramana... The Eternal Witness recognizes that it IS and always has been free of the illusion of personhood. Well then you're contradicting what Ramana actually said. Just think about what you're saying.The eternal witness is known through the jiva, the individual, as a reflection of the absolute. The eternal witness doesn't know anything. It's not an entity. The fact that you can actually talk about the eternal witness is because you as an individual are expressing its value through you as individuated consciousness. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2019 16:48:37 GMT
Ramana didn't recognize that he was the Eternal Witness. The Eternal Witness recognized that it wasn't Ramana... The Eternal Witness recognizes that it IS and always has been free of the illusion of personhood. Well then you're contradicting what Ramana actually said. Just think about what you're saying.The eternal witness is known through the jiva, the individual, as a reflection of the absolute. The eternal witness doesn't know anything. It's not an entity. The fact that you can actually talk about the eternal witness is because you as an individual are expressing its value through you as individuated consciousness. It's your choice... You are either the Eternal Witness or you are the Ephemeral individual. Only you can discover your True place. Mr Mind will say you are both, but of course that's it's last kick at the can to avoid disappearing for good... |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2019 17:13:00 GMT
You are either the Eternal Witness or you are the Ephemeral individual. You are both simultaneously. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2019 17:32:56 GMT
You are either the Eternal Witness or you are the Ephemeral individual. You are both simultaneously. ...kicks the can down the street. |
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Post by Figgles on Dec 23, 2019 18:18:09 GMT
You are both simultaneously. ...kicks the can down the street.   |
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Enigma
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Post by Enigma on Dec 24, 2019 17:57:46 GMT
It's inappropriate to talk about Ramana's death experience as a death. Actually not many people know that he had a second death experience many years later when his body did actually seem to die for a few minutes, but the experience he had when he was a teenager which led to realization of the Self was not about death. It was about life. If the body dies then the sensory capabilities are no longer available to the eternal Witness, but with his experience he simply realized that he was the eternal Witness in a living body. This is why liberation is referred to as Jivan mukti which means freedom while living in a body. I think it's better explained in the tantric tradition in terms of Shiva and Shakti. the manifestation of form and the individual ego is just an aspect of Shiva the absolute. Shakti is no different to Shiva. The important point with Self realization is that there is only one whether it appears as unmanifest or manifest. So in Vedanta, Brahman is spoken about in terms of saguna Brahman (with form) and nirguna Brahman (without form). What happened with Ramana is that he completely transcended the gunas and realized that he was unborn therefore unaffected by death of the body. But that complete dissolving of I also lead to the total integration with mind-body as the living reality of Self in Unity consciousness which is one without a second. Ramana didn't recognize that he was the Eternal Witness. The Eternal Witness recognized that it wasn't Ramana... The Eternal Witness recognizes that it IS and always has been free of the illusion of personhood. Correct, but the illusion of Satch isn't going to like you calling personhood an illusion. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2019 18:06:56 GMT
Ramana didn't recognize that he was the Eternal Witness. The Eternal Witness recognized that it wasn't Ramana... The Eternal Witness recognizes that it IS and always has been free of the illusion of personhood. Correct, but the illusion of Satch isn't going to like you calling personhood an illusion.That's true, but he has a choice...the Eternal witness, or the illusion with the belief that it is the Eternal Witness. |
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