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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2019 17:44:11 GMT
I didn't say that. There are no illusions for the realized because everything is the Self. Everything is the actuality. There is nothing that could be taken or not taken for an illusion because there is no such thing as an illusion. Even fundamental separation? There is no such thing if all is the Self. You are asking that question from your perspective of separation and mistakenly thinking it needs to arise in the realized in order for it to be dismissed or seen through.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2019 17:45:54 GMT
Here's a question for you. If Self-realization means oneness, unity, not two, then how can there be illusion in the reality? Mistakingly seeing separation happens 'within' the dream. The sense of separation, seeing separation, is an arising within/to that which is fundamental/substantive (reality). I know what dreams are and that's not it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2019 17:50:07 GMT
Why would real anger make you suffer? Because real anger (blameful/vengeful ideas/thoughts/feelings) mean abidance in mind. Abidance in being = awareness that there is not actually anyone to blame....no person who is actually responsible. To vengefully ascribe blame and responsibility is to suffer because that ascribing means the presence of the SVP. The imagined SVP = suffering. No it's not, but maybe you suffer when there is anger.
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Post by Figgles on Dec 9, 2019 17:50:26 GMT
So when mind is silent, a large number of trees are no longer perceived as a forest, but rather, a visual-field of non-form? I say the recognition of objects, or of a forest, is wholly compatible with a silent mind. That's why if you were driving along a forest road in silence, if an elephant suddenly charged out of the trees, it wouldn't go unnoticed.
You've repeatedly talked about the fact that thought is not required for the body to quickly move out of the way of a charging elephant, an oncoming bus, etc. And I'd agree. That though seems to conflict with your assertion about an indistinguishable, visual field replacing recognized form/objects, when mind is silent.
Jumping outta the way of an oncoming bus does not require the thought "holy shit, as bus is coming, I better get outta the way," and can indeed happen amidst a silent mind. But absent the perception of form, a fast moving bus (vs. an undefined visual field, absent objects/form) that wouldn't be the case.
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Post by Figgles on Dec 9, 2019 17:54:08 GMT
I have answered. The very question of 'who' is misconceived. There is no thing, person, what, at the helm. It just appears that way. Seeing through happens, as do ALL happenings, absent a doer, absent a seer, absent a knower. Anything that happens has "___________________" at the helm. We can only point to 'what' that is. (it's NOT a what!)...not even an IT! Both you and Satch are insisting that I conceptualize that which can only be pointed to. Has what at the helm? Why are you afraid to fill in the blank? The blank is the most accurate way I can convey to you that no-thing, no who, no what is in the driver's/doer's seat. Blanks are the best way to point towards the Truth, when speaking to those who are still identified with perceivables. Otherwise, any term used, will be conceptualized.
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Post by Figgles on Dec 9, 2019 17:56:30 GMT
Even fundamental separation? There is no such thing if all is the Self. You are asking that question from your perspective of separation and mistakenly thinking it needs to arise in the realized in order for it to be dismissed or seen through. Right. But it's only in SR that that is seen. The seeker still believes in separation. It's only from the position of no longer buying into the idea of separation that separation can be said to be non-existent...a trick of mind...an illusion.
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Post by Figgles on Dec 9, 2019 17:57:40 GMT
Mistakingly seeing separation happens 'within' the dream. The sense of separation, seeing separation, is an arising within/to that which is fundamental/substantive (reality). I know what dreams are and that's not it. Does 'story,' 'realm of perceivables,' 'appearing world,' work any better for you?
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Post by Figgles on Dec 9, 2019 17:59:38 GMT
Because real anger (blameful/vengeful ideas/thoughts/feelings) mean abidance in mind. Abidance in being = awareness that there is not actually anyone to blame....no person who is actually responsible. To vengefully ascribe blame and responsibility is to suffer because that ascribing means the presence of the SVP. The imagined SVP = suffering. No it's not, but maybe you suffer when there is anger. The arising of vengeance, blameful anger means immersion within the story. The story's gotcha by the short & curlies.
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Post by Figgles on Dec 9, 2019 18:22:41 GMT
Yes.
And, important to note (ZD!) that 'separately existing phenomenon, absence of unity, separation' does not equal 'distinction.' This idea that 'Awareness absent awareness of separately existing phenomena' means that form/objects are no longer perceived, but rather, an undistinguishable, field of aliveness is instead, is hokum.
The perception of an object, recognition, does not equal the perception of separation. Distinction continues to appear even when separation has been fully seen through. Distinction does not equal separation.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2019 20:52:51 GMT
Yes. And, important to note (ZD!) that 'separately existing phenomenon, absence of unity, separation' does not equal 'distinction.' This idea that 'Awareness absent awareness of separately existing phenomena' means that form/objects are no longer perceived, but rather, an undistinguishable, field of aliveness is instead, is hokum. The perception of an object, recognition, does not equal the perception of separation. Distinction continues to appear even when separation has been fully seen through. Distinction does not equal separation. Stay as the Self and see that thoughts of distinction and separation are merely leaves flowing by on the river. Entangling Self with thoughts is like muddling the pure waters.
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