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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2019 10:56:20 GMT
Those kinds of thoughts wouldn't even arise to me either. But when questioned, it has to be this way. When I look at my daughter's eyes, I forget the whole world in her innocence look, I wouldn't even think that whether she is real or not when I look at her, there is a kind of belief in my background that says to me that she may be real but I can't KNOW ultimately. Well said. And again, the love, your interest in and caring for your daughter, is not dependent upon that knowing. If it were, that would make your love for her, the impetus to engage with her, conditional upon knowledge that what appears is Truth. The appearance of sentience, the appearance of eyes that look back with love shining from them, is MORE than enough to evoke interest...caring.....love. No need to know for certain if there is actual sentience, actual experiencing/perception there. And that's really the miracle, the beauty, the awesomeness of Love!! I find it very sad that some figure you must 'know' for absolute certain that an appearing other is actually perceiving/experiencing, not to just ignore them. Only,Reefs,Andrew,Tenka can't understand this simple thing, Only Satch,ZD,Muttley can only act as if they don't understand what we are talking about and started opposing us even thought those people know we are right.
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Enigma
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Post by Enigma on Oct 31, 2019 13:32:52 GMT
Reefs's understanding power is not enough to grasp this point . Same for Tenka,Andrew! Leave these kind of folks in their own way. Don't wrestle with them. They can never grasp it. Yes, you are indeed describing how things are now in that regard, how they appear now, and how they have been for some time, but "Understanding power" changes in realization and in the same way we cannot even know if appearing others are even experiencing/perceiving, let alone, capable of 'realizing Truth,' we also can't know if/when realization will happen. Seeing it's all just a play of 'dream-stuff,' makes it even more clear, that truly anything is possible in terms of what experience will reveal. Reefs has gone from berating those he sees to be missing the fact that 'realization is a loss...an absence....cannot be described,' to now insisting that his in depth, blow by blow description of a CC/Kensho does in fact constitute 'a realization, in a mere matter of years, thus, all bets are off as to what his 'understanding power' might be down the road, (or even tomorrow!). Good point, Reefs is 'proof' that 'understanding power' can change radically.
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Post by Figgles on Oct 31, 2019 16:10:40 GMT
It makes me laugh when you tell me that I have a mere conceptual understanding when it is clear as day that it applies to you. And I will tell you exactly why because you have the cart before the horse. Self Realization happens when the limited I which is mistakenly identified with as the real me dissolves completely into infinite silence and becomes the Self which has always been but is simply revealed to the conscious mind.Although the language I use is somewhat different, I completely agree with what you seem to be saying there. What you are saying there about mistaken identification dissolving, is no different than what I've been saying about the cessation of identification with the phenomenal/that which appears, going hand in hand with the seeing that appearances arise to/within awareness/being. Agreed. This is where we differ. Just because a meditation practice may 'precede' SR, does not mean the meditation practice actually caused SR. Your said seeing of all changing phenomena or any experience as 'just something appearing and disappearing against the unchanging background of awareness/being' (if it was an actual realization and not just a mental position), should have put the phenomenal 'meditation practice' as causal to SR, in its place. How is it you no longer identify with the phenomenal and yet, still hold to the idea that phenomenal happenings can 'cause,' SR? Nope, but nice try. Although, what you describe does appear to happen with some. What you will have then is a sort of 'stoicism' or an act one puts on of 'not caring.' Such games of course, will not result in realization. The two go hand in hand. To realize Self is to cease to identify with appearance. It's the identification with appearance that is obscuring Self. When that goes, Self is revealed. "Meditation practice as causal to SR" is a mere appearance! It's laughable to say you are 'completely unconcerned' about what appears. You've been completely captivated by the appearance of meditation preceding SR. You've completely and totally bought into that appearance to the degree that you continue over and over to sell the story that meditation practice is absolutely necessary to SR. You've been bamboozled by that which you say is "something just appearing and disappearing against this unchanging background of awareness/being". You can't have it both ways; On one hand insisting that you've realized the phenomenal to be 'something just appearing and disappearing against the unchanging background,' AND also insist that something phenomenal actually causes the cessation of identification with the phenomenal. I on the other hand, in speaking about the world as an empty appearance, am not concerned with 'what appears,' rather, the point I keep driving home is that what appears is empty.
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Post by Figgles on Oct 31, 2019 16:13:25 GMT
It's bizarre really how this assertion keeps being made. What they're really saying is that in seeing that world is but an ephemeral arising within/to Being, there should no longer be any interest in engaging it. It's fallacious thinking that erroneously ties arising interest/impetus to engage with "knowing." I would say one of the most important 'insights' tied to SR, is the seeing that as the world appears, interest in it, interest to engage, naturally appears. As a matter of fact, I believe more than that, when one steps into the experience, it defines whole line from the beginning to the end. For an example, the beginning of your dream determines the whole experience you are going to have until you wake up. So in that sense, is your entire life experience already determined at birth?
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Post by Figgles on Oct 31, 2019 16:21:29 GMT
Well said. And again, the love, your interest in and caring for your daughter, is not dependent upon that knowing. If it were, that would make your love for her, the impetus to engage with her, conditional upon knowledge that what appears is Truth. The appearance of sentience, the appearance of eyes that look back with love shining from them, is MORE than enough to evoke interest...caring.....love. No need to know for certain if there is actual sentience, actual experiencing/perception there. And that's really the miracle, the beauty, the awesomeness of Love!! I find it very sad that some figure you must 'know' for absolute certain that an appearing other is actually perceiving/experiencing, not to just ignore them. Only,Reefs,Andrew,Tenka can't understand this simple thing, Only Satch,ZD,Muttley can only act as if they don't understand what we are talking about and started opposing us even thought those people know we are right. Reefs, Andrew, Tenka are still identified with the appearing world, and that identification obscures the Truth. And yes, the others you mention seem to waffle....Satchi at one point was very clear about not knowing, but now won't so readily say it as he's holding tight to party lines and ZD waffles back & forth on whether the 'aliveness' he says he's realized is a pointer or absolute knowing about the phenomenal and Muttley, well, I'm not entirely sure he was ever even talking bout the same things as were were when he speaks of 'not knowing,' although the quote of his I re-shared in the quotes section seems to indicate at that point, that he was on board...but who knows? That said, it is entirely possible for identification with the phenomenal to cease (as in SR!) and if so, Reefs, Andrew and Tenka,'s seeing on this issue, would necessarily shift to reflect that.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2019 12:44:57 GMT
As a matter of fact, I believe more than that, when one steps into the experience, it defines whole line from the beginning to the end. For an example, the beginning of your dream determines the whole experience you are going to have until you wake up. So in that sense, is your entire life experience already determined at birth? That's the way it seems to be. I tell you a story. I know this story seems to be fun for you or you would immediately dismiss me as it's a conclusion out of experience. When daughter born,My brother-in-law came to see my new born baby and there he was narrating a story. He has two children, first one is the girl and the second one is the boy. In TamilNadu, after the few years of baby's birth we go to astrologer to write down the astrology of that new born baby. Likewise he went to write down the astrology for his son(Second child), Astrologer asked him few details, one of the main important thing inquired was the birth time of the baby, he gave the wrong time(few minutes after the baby's birth) and he is aware of that as well and he thought nothing would happen because of this little adjustment. And then astrologer after looking at the time of the baby and place where the baby born, he told my brother-in-law that this time there is no chance of birth of the boy, this time is the time of the girl baby. I am shocked. I just asked him again and again whether it really happened, My brother-in-law asserted the truth. And then he gave the correct time and astrologer has written down the correct astrology for him.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2019 12:48:06 GMT
Only,Reefs,Andrew,Tenka can't understand this simple thing, Only Satch,ZD,Muttley can only act as if they don't understand what we are talking about and started opposing us even thought those people know we are right. Reefs, Andrew, Tenka are still identified with the appearing world, and that identification obscures the Truth. And yes, the others you mention seem to waffle....Satchi at one point was very clear about not knowing, but now won't so readily say it as he's holding tight to party lines and ZD waffles back & forth on whether the 'aliveness' he says he's realized is a pointer or absolute knowing about the phenomenal and Muttley, well, I'm not entirely sure he was ever even talking bout the same things as were were when he speaks of 'not knowing,' although the quote of his I re-shared in the quotes section seems to indicate at that point, that he was on board...but who knows? That said, it is entirely possible for identification with the phenomenal to cease (as in SR!) and if so, Reefs, Andrew and Tenka,'s seeing on this issue, would necessarily shift to reflect that. You wait and see that would never happen. Mind-Body is stamped to perform certain act!
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
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Post by Enigma on Nov 1, 2019 16:14:55 GMT
So in that sense, is your entire life experience already determined at birth? That's the way it seems to be. I tell you a story. I know this story seems to be fun for you or you would immediately dismiss me as it's a conclusion out of experience. When daughter born,My brother-in-law came to see my new born baby and there he was narrating a story. He has two children, first one is the girl and the second one is the boy. In TamilNadu, after the few years of baby's birth we go to astrologer to write down the astrology of that new born baby. Likewise he went to write down the astrology for his son(Second child), Astrologer asked him few details, one of the main important thing inquired was the birth time of the baby, he gave the wrong time(few minutes after the baby's birth) and he is aware of that as well and he thought nothing would happen because of this little adjustment. And then astrologer after looking at the time of the baby and place where the baby born, he told my brother-in-law that this time there is no chance of birth of the boy, this time is the time of the girl baby. I am shocked. I just asked him again and again whether it really happened, My brother-in-law asserted the truth. And then he gave the correct time and astrologer has written down the correct astrology for him. The problem that I see is not in the happening, as all things are possible, but in the conclusion you derived from it; predetermination. This is assigning transcendent truth to an experience that is empty.
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Post by Figgles on Nov 1, 2019 18:54:28 GMT
As usual, once the danger of direct confrontation is gone, the "I do know" crowd on ST starts slinging their counter-arguments. The assertion/seeing that It can't be known is not a 'belief.' It has the realization of the world as a dependent arising upon Being, at it's helm and thus, is the natural consequence of such. It is the 'self' though, that believes it can and does know. The belief in knowing is a natural consequence of identification with the phenomenal....identification with body/mind, the appearance of aliveness, sentience, etc.
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Post by Figgles on Nov 1, 2019 19:03:15 GMT
This again? How many times does it have to be said that in seeing that it cannot be known, there is NO arising question or issue? Once the entirety of phenomenal arisings has been seen to be an appearance within/to consciousness, one stops seeking absoluteness there, in the same way that when one knows a well to be empty, he no longer lowers his bucket, seeing water from it.
When identification with the phenomenal ceases, so too does taking an appearance for something more substantial than just an appearance.
Knowing for absolute certain that what appears is the Truth = identification with the phenomenal.
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