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Post by Figgles on Nov 6, 2019 20:44:38 GMT
Everyone else though just stood by and let it happen. No one spoke up against what Reefs was doing. Because they are also not having the freedom to talk except ZD.But remember, If you go with the flow then you can't get hurt or you can't oppose him by the action taken by him . There's strength in numbers...and Reefs is unlikely to ban everyone, but yes, his stringent rules have likely made it more difficult for someone to speak up. Fwiw, going with the flow CAN include voicing opposition. (not sure if you're saying otherwise). In short, it can be difficult at times to accurately ascertain for certain whether or not someone is going with the flow just by observing his actions.
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Post by Figgles on Nov 6, 2019 20:49:36 GMT
So for you, your knowing of "I am" is directly on par with your knowing that if you stand on the edge of a cliff, take a step forward, you will die? Yes because they are both experienced. Which means for you, "I am" comes and goes, arises and falls, just like all other phenomenal arisings? Is there not any absolute ground that abides the experiential...no unchanging foundation?
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Post by Figgles on Nov 6, 2019 20:54:06 GMT
All possessed and collected knowledge is a bundle of ignorance. ~ Nisargadatta Maharaj Now I know nothing, for all knowledge is in dream only and not valid. I know myself and I find no life nor death in me, only pure being, not being this or that, but just being. ~ Nisargadatta Maharaj You can say everything is a dream, but Nisargadatta ran his dream business so as to provide for his dream family and everyday he made offerings to a dream photo of his dream Guru. Yes. As has been said over and over; Seeing life as akin to a dream does not mean the end of caring about it, engaging it, loving it.
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Post by Figgles on Nov 6, 2019 22:10:43 GMT
Notice how Watts continually references what he's describing as "an experience"? Experiences are not pointers. Pointers point to that which defies conceptualization...to that which is a 'realization.' If the substance of your "I do know because it's all alive," is an experience, then it's wrong to call it "a pointer." Pointers don't get used to argue against the absence of conceptualization/knowledge. On the contrary, Pointers point TO that absence. Seems to me he is simply describing what life experience is like following the end of separation.... ...of falling in love with life....being free....liberation from mind. I can relate to everything he is saying there, but what you're missing is that 'absence of knowing'......seeing all phenomenal arisings as empty, dependent upon the abiding ground, is an integral facet of the "complete spiritual/psychological freedom," he is referencing. He is describing the experiential, feeling aspects of realizing 'no separation,' of being free. And most importantly, Do you see anywhere there where Watts says that that experience, the feelings, the way of experiencing the world he is talking about, give way to absolute knowings about the world? Absolute knowledge about perceivables, about appearances? In this bit here, he indeed talking about a world that now appears 'more vivid, more alive, vibrant, immediate' than prior to, however to take that 'experience' as proof that what appears to be, is absolute Truth, is to grossly misconstrue what is a mere experience for a realization.If this is what you're talking about, it should never have been used to argue against 'not knowing.'
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Post by Figgles on Nov 6, 2019 22:37:54 GMT
Here's the problem; You ARE awareness. Awareness is not a perceivable...not an ephemeral arising that comes and goes, not 'an appearance only.' Whereas, Vibrancy, luminosity, divinity, dullness, inertness, IS.
If those of us asserting 'not knowing' had been insisting that the experiential world was one of 'dullness, deadness, inertness,' it may have been okay to counter with "it's all alive." But that was never the assertion.
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Post by Figgles on Nov 7, 2019 2:03:42 GMT
Nice.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2019 2:27:37 GMT
Yes because they are both experienced. Which means for you, "I am" comes and goes, arises and falls, just like all other phenomenal arisings? Is there not any absolute ground that abides the experiential...no unchanging foundation? You asked if I knew anything with absolute certainty. I am certain that if I step off the cliff then I will fall. I am also certain that I Am. Both of these are experiences in awareness which come and go. You cannot be certain of the ground state of awareness which precedes both the experience of the cliff edge and the I Am feeling because awareness is not an object for which you can have certainty about. It is simply what you are. The question, am I certain I am aware or do I doubt I am aware cannot even arise from awareness itself. The question is misconceived because awareness simply is. It is beyond certainty or doubt. The only reason anyone would make a distinction between and give weight to unchanging ground of Being or awareness over changing experience is because although they can discriminate between unchanging awareness and phenomena they have not yet seen that there is only THIS and that changing form and experience is just unchanging Being appearing as form. When that's realized no one cares about the story anymore. It's just the flow of life in unity without separation, attachment and suffering. The wise don't go around thinking the world is false or an illusion because the Self is everything that appears or doesn't appear. You must stop thinking that unchanging Being is somehow better or superior to the changing phenomena of world. It's all one Reality! To talk about knowing no separation yet to continue to separate ground state from world means there is still separation.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2019 16:09:54 GMT
this war against knowledge is crazy! All possessed and collected knowledge is a bundle of ignorance. ~ Nisargadatta Maharaj Now I know nothing, for all knowledge is in dream only and not valid. I know myself and I find no life nor death in me, only pure being, not being this or that, but just being. ~ Nisargadatta Maharaj I'm never quite sure what to make of these types of quotes. Who was he talking to? What was the context of the conversation? How accurate is the translation? etc.
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Post by Figgles on Nov 7, 2019 16:44:09 GMT
You asked if I knew anything with absolute certainty. I am certain that if I step off the cliff then I will fall. I am also certain that I Am. Both of these are experiences in awareness which come and go.You've just admitted that you identify with the phenomenal. Cool. Good to finally have it out there. Hmmm....But how do you 'know'? That I am the ground that gives rise to all phenomena is a 'knowing' in a league all it's own. Indeed, there is no separate someone 'who' knows it. I am the ground. The mere saying of it though is not the realization of it. Poopy pants, disingenuous, insincere argument. Regardless of seeing that 'ultimately' there is only THIS, there is never a return to 'identification with' the phenomenal. And that's what you are proposing when you insist that the distinction collapses completely. "Better/superior" are not words I've ever used. One though, is foundational, unchanging, abiding, the other is an arising within/to that, changing, ephemeral, lacking it's own inherent substance. There is never a point, even in seeing, "there is only THIS" that a transient, appearance is taken to have it's own inherent substance. It always remains an arising/appearance within/to Being.
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Post by Figgles on Nov 7, 2019 16:46:19 GMT
All possessed and collected knowledge is a bundle of ignorance. ~ Nisargadatta Maharaj Now I know nothing, for all knowledge is in dream only and not valid. I know myself and I find no life nor death in me, only pure being, not being this or that, but just being. ~ Nisargadatta Maharaj I'm never quite sure what to make of these types of quotes. Who was he talking to? What was the context of the conversation? How accurate is the translation? etc. I would say in that case, anyone who is clinging to knowledge. The "I do know" crowd would be perfect students for just such a message.
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