Post by siftingtothetruth on Jun 2, 2019 22:43:31 GMT
I'd posted some fragments of the below on the other forum a while back, but since it didn't get a reply, thought I'd post it here.
Sorry in advance that it's disorganized. These are just sort of thoughts/notes splayed out.
I was -- and am -- interested in some of the distinctions in the concepts between Buddhist terms like kensho and satori, the Vedantic cognates in samadhi, and the more modern Western concepts of being in the zone and flow.
Basically, kensho and/or "cosmic consciousness" is about the temporary experience of non-separation, of the Truth, or we could call it "suchness." It can manifest many ways, depending on the surrounding thoughts. But without satori, one keeps falling back. Satori is a shift where one realizes suddenly that the falling back can never happen again, that indeed it had never happened. I view it ultimately as a discernment or discrimination, the realization that the notion that there is anything other than kensho is false.
Satori is what's called "brahma jnana" in Vedanta, on these forums "self-realization," and more tendentiously, enlightenment.
Kensho in that sense could even cover the sense of deep meaningfulness, freshness, vividness, and peace that comes from seeing natural scenes, listening to certain kinds of beautiful music, and the exit -- the shift out of -- from deep states of sitting meditation samadhi.
Now there are basically two things at stake in the overall categorizations:
suchness aka the Truth aka Self/Brahman
the structure of the vasanas, or tendencies which tug the mind in certain directions based on identification-based desire, that is, desire based on identification with a limited entity
Now, I'd suggest that the dualistic experience of suchness -- that is, when suchness is a mode of the mind, when it is felt as a changeable experience that comes in and out -- is colored by the surrounding experience and conditioning, that is, the structure of the vasanas.
This very same dualistic experience (it's actually nondual but simply not recognized to be that yet) is kensho when it is recognized in purity even when thoughts surround it, and nirvikalpa samadhi (NS) when it is recognized in purity in meditation with no surrounding thoughts.
In some cases that experience may be simply the sense of all-encompassing peace that comes from listening to a great symphony or viewing a waterfall. But that's all just the surrounding conditioning.
The point is the touching on the qualityless quality, the "empty fullness." Like white space, its meaning depends on the surrounding stuff.
Nirvikalpa samadhi is a state of wakefulness but without other perception or thought. Yet it is not a state of darkness: that would be deep sleep. So what is there? What's there is the waking ego. The waking ego reflects on itself. It is, as Ramana Maharshi puts it, like two mirrors facing each other. When there is nothing else to set them off, I think what you get is pure bliss, as close to colorless as possible.
But it is a conscious "experience" of a sort. Of what? Of suchness in as "pure" a form as possible.
When that same waking ego reflecting on itself happens with thought and perception also arising, it is kensho.
And when this suchness is touched enough that the vasana structure is altered (how? by leading the mind to seek its pleasure in the peace of its own calmness rather than through the pursuit of desire-based objects in the external world) and suchness is seen to be constant and unchangeable, then it is no longer a dualistic experience (or no longer only a dualistic experience) -- and that's satori. Satori means that the background of suchness now become the foreground, and the foreground of the changing objects now fades into the background.
Actually it must be the case that both kensho and NS are discernments or discriminations of suchness, but just not completely clear ones. Kensho/NS are flickering satoris -- flickering because of the mental tendencies/vasanas that disturb the mind again and again.
Also, kensho should be considered NS in the midst of life; NS is kensho in the midst of meditation. That's why Ramana calls the experience post-moksha technically sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi.
Concentration ("dhyana"), samadhi, all of these are both the path and the goal. As the path they slow the desire-based movements of the mind so that it can temporarily reflect the moon of its Self. This leads to dualistic experiences of It/suchness/Self -- NS in deep meditation; kensho and all the varieties of CC when thoughts surround it. But these experiences simply are of the temporary discernment of the pure nature of suchness/samadhi/dhyana.
But such temporary experiences alter the vasana structure more and more, and eventually lead to satori/jnana.
As the goal they are seen to simply be constant, as the mind learns to permanently discriminate the constant tone of suchness from all the superimpositions and to nondually recognize suchness as its own being.
And there are also other relative or temporary concentration states -- for example, what we'd call the state of "flow" or "being in the zone." This is a limited loss of ego with respect to some particular activity. But it's an interesting question why a temporary loss of ego would lead to increased performance in, say, sports. How do we think about that?
Sorry in advance that it's disorganized. These are just sort of thoughts/notes splayed out.
I was -- and am -- interested in some of the distinctions in the concepts between Buddhist terms like kensho and satori, the Vedantic cognates in samadhi, and the more modern Western concepts of being in the zone and flow.
Basically, kensho and/or "cosmic consciousness" is about the temporary experience of non-separation, of the Truth, or we could call it "suchness." It can manifest many ways, depending on the surrounding thoughts. But without satori, one keeps falling back. Satori is a shift where one realizes suddenly that the falling back can never happen again, that indeed it had never happened. I view it ultimately as a discernment or discrimination, the realization that the notion that there is anything other than kensho is false.
Satori is what's called "brahma jnana" in Vedanta, on these forums "self-realization," and more tendentiously, enlightenment.
Kensho in that sense could even cover the sense of deep meaningfulness, freshness, vividness, and peace that comes from seeing natural scenes, listening to certain kinds of beautiful music, and the exit -- the shift out of -- from deep states of sitting meditation samadhi.
Now there are basically two things at stake in the overall categorizations:
suchness aka the Truth aka Self/Brahman
the structure of the vasanas, or tendencies which tug the mind in certain directions based on identification-based desire, that is, desire based on identification with a limited entity
Now, I'd suggest that the dualistic experience of suchness -- that is, when suchness is a mode of the mind, when it is felt as a changeable experience that comes in and out -- is colored by the surrounding experience and conditioning, that is, the structure of the vasanas.
This very same dualistic experience (it's actually nondual but simply not recognized to be that yet) is kensho when it is recognized in purity even when thoughts surround it, and nirvikalpa samadhi (NS) when it is recognized in purity in meditation with no surrounding thoughts.
In some cases that experience may be simply the sense of all-encompassing peace that comes from listening to a great symphony or viewing a waterfall. But that's all just the surrounding conditioning.
The point is the touching on the qualityless quality, the "empty fullness." Like white space, its meaning depends on the surrounding stuff.
Nirvikalpa samadhi is a state of wakefulness but without other perception or thought. Yet it is not a state of darkness: that would be deep sleep. So what is there? What's there is the waking ego. The waking ego reflects on itself. It is, as Ramana Maharshi puts it, like two mirrors facing each other. When there is nothing else to set them off, I think what you get is pure bliss, as close to colorless as possible.
But it is a conscious "experience" of a sort. Of what? Of suchness in as "pure" a form as possible.
When that same waking ego reflecting on itself happens with thought and perception also arising, it is kensho.
And when this suchness is touched enough that the vasana structure is altered (how? by leading the mind to seek its pleasure in the peace of its own calmness rather than through the pursuit of desire-based objects in the external world) and suchness is seen to be constant and unchangeable, then it is no longer a dualistic experience (or no longer only a dualistic experience) -- and that's satori. Satori means that the background of suchness now become the foreground, and the foreground of the changing objects now fades into the background.
Actually it must be the case that both kensho and NS are discernments or discriminations of suchness, but just not completely clear ones. Kensho/NS are flickering satoris -- flickering because of the mental tendencies/vasanas that disturb the mind again and again.
Also, kensho should be considered NS in the midst of life; NS is kensho in the midst of meditation. That's why Ramana calls the experience post-moksha technically sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi.
Concentration ("dhyana"), samadhi, all of these are both the path and the goal. As the path they slow the desire-based movements of the mind so that it can temporarily reflect the moon of its Self. This leads to dualistic experiences of It/suchness/Self -- NS in deep meditation; kensho and all the varieties of CC when thoughts surround it. But these experiences simply are of the temporary discernment of the pure nature of suchness/samadhi/dhyana.
But such temporary experiences alter the vasana structure more and more, and eventually lead to satori/jnana.
As the goal they are seen to simply be constant, as the mind learns to permanently discriminate the constant tone of suchness from all the superimpositions and to nondually recognize suchness as its own being.
And there are also other relative or temporary concentration states -- for example, what we'd call the state of "flow" or "being in the zone." This is a limited loss of ego with respect to some particular activity. But it's an interesting question why a temporary loss of ego would lead to increased performance in, say, sports. How do we think about that?
