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Post by Figgles on Jun 15, 2019 14:44:53 GMT
You are describing what 'can' happen when one has but a conceptual understanding vs. an actual realization of no separation.
The difference between one who is SR saying he's had a bad day vs. one who is still fully immersed within the dream saying he's had a bad day is that the one immersed still believes himself to be the character within the story 'who is having' a bad day, who is discerning and making judgements about what is good/bad, whereas the sage identifies with neither the character nor the story. That does not mean though that he is unable to distinguish a good day from a bad day. It just means he's no longer identified as 'the judge' from which those discernments arise. Judgement happens, likes and dislikes continue to arise, but absent identification with the person who judges and likes and dislikes. And that makes all the difference. That's what equals 'freedom.'
The end of identification with the one who judges, with the judgements themselves, though, does not mean there is 'nothing left.' Thingness, the world, continues to arise...continues to appear. To cease to engage it completely, is simply not an option. If it appears, there is already some degree of engagement.
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Post by Figgles on Jun 15, 2019 14:59:06 GMT
Yes! "I do miss the froggies" (come join us over here.....your contribution to the conversation is valued)
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Post by Figgles on Jun 25, 2019 18:34:45 GMT
Just as one's efforts to find liberation/freedom "within" the world are misguided, misdirected, so too are one's efforts to find "consciousness/being" within the world.
As much as you might want it to be so, no matter how compelling a particular mystical experience may be, consciousness, being, awareness, is not an arising/property/quality of worldy things. Rather, the world of things arises in consciousness.
The one who finds his peace in a quality/property that he experiences as encompassing the entire world of thingness, (its' all alive!) is not free. Ultimately, He is just as tied to the world of thingness as the man whose peace hinges upon having the biggest house on the block.
True peace lies beyond the world. True freedom means 'free from' the world of thingness, thoughts, ideas, judgements, likes, dislikes. And that doesn't mean likes/dislikes cease completely, it's just that that which lies fundamental, looms larger...remains fundamental.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2019 3:37:49 GMT
You are describing what 'can' happen when one has but a conceptual understanding vs. an actual realization of no separation. The difference between one who is SR saying he's had a bad day vs. one who is still fully immersed within the dream saying he's had a bad day is that the one immersed still believes himself to be the character within the story 'who is having' a bad day, who is discerning and making judgements about what is good/bad, whereas the sage identifies with neither the character nor the story. That does not mean though that he is unable to distinguish a good day from a bad day. It just means he's no longer identified as 'the judge' from which those discernments arise. Judgement happens, likes and dislikes continue to arise, but absent identification with the person who judges and likes and dislikes. And that makes all the difference. That's what equals 'freedom.' The end of identification with the one who judges, with the judgements themselves, though, does not mean there is 'nothing left.' Thingness, the world, continues to arise...continues to appear. To cease to engage it completely, is simply not an option. If it appears, there is already some degree of engagement. This exchange clearly characterizes what is wrong with these forums. Zazaneic is talking about how "seekers" might see things when they get exposed to non-dual ideas and you are stomping all over that with the big, yeah but I'm SR and I wouldn't possibly think that because it's not just conceptual for me. It's also possible that it is also conceptual for you but you have just talked yourself into thinking that it's not conceptual for you but you are speaking to him as if you are SR. Nobody knows. Maybe we should do what Liberation Unleashed does where everyone who approaches the forum clearly identifies themselves as a seeker and the guides are clearly identified as those who know something which may or may not be true. Nobody knows. The other thing to point out is that this isn't really an exchange between you and Zazeniac. You have copied his post from the ST forum and replied to it here where he has no chance to respond to it.
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muttley
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 4,394
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Post by muttley on Jun 26, 2019 10:25:59 GMT
You are describing what 'can' happen when one has but a conceptual understanding vs. an actual realization of no separation. The difference between one who is SR saying he's had a bad day vs. one who is still fully immersed within the dream saying he's had a bad day is that the one immersed still believes himself to be the character within the story 'who is having' a bad day, who is discerning and making judgements about what is good/bad, whereas the sage identifies with neither the character nor the story. That does not mean though that he is unable to distinguish a good day from a bad day. It just means he's no longer identified as 'the judge' from which those discernments arise. Judgement happens, likes and dislikes continue to arise, but absent identification with the person who judges and likes and dislikes. And that makes all the difference. That's what equals 'freedom.' The end of identification with the one who judges, with the judgements themselves, though, does not mean there is 'nothing left.' Thingness, the world, continues to arise...continues to appear. To cease to engage it completely, is simply not an option. If it appears, there is already some degree of engagement. This exchange clearly characterizes what is wrong with these forums. Zazaneic is talking about how "seekers" might see things when they get exposed to non-dual ideas and you are stomping all over that with the big, yeah but I'm SR and I wouldn't possibly think that because it's not just conceptual for me. It's also possible that it is also conceptual for you but you have just talked yourself into thinking that it's not conceptual for you but you are speaking to him as if you are SR. Nobody knows. Maybe we should do what Liberation Unleashed does where everyone who approaches the forum clearly identifies themselves as a seeker and the guides are clearly identified as those who know something which may or may not be true. Nobody knows. The other thing to point out is that this isn't really an exchange between you and Zazeniac. You have copied his post from the ST forum and replied to it here where he has no chance to respond to it. So are you saying that your opinion's as to who is self-realized and who isn't may or may not be correct?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2019 10:45:39 GMT
So are you saying that your opinion's as to who is self-realized and who isn't may or may not be correct? I could never be entirely sure just from reading words on a screen.
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muttley
Super Duper Senior Member
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Post by muttley on Jun 26, 2019 11:23:11 GMT
So are you saying that your opinion's as to who is self-realized and who isn't may or may not be correct? I could never be entirely sure just from reading words on a screen. Ultimately, we're the only one that can ever be certain of whether or not we're being honest with ourselves, although, sometimes, people can make it quite clear that they're not.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2019 11:30:49 GMT
I could never be entirely sure just from reading words on a screen. Ultimately, we're the only one that can ever be certain of whether or not we're being honest with ourselves, although, sometimes, people can make it quite clear that they're not. I am immediately suspicious whenever I hear someone talk about themselves or others having to be honest with themselves. It's a big red light for me.
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muttley
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Posts: 4,394
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Post by muttley on Jun 26, 2019 12:00:55 GMT
Ultimately, we're the only one that can ever be certain of whether or not we're being honest with ourselves, although, sometimes, people can make it quite clear that they're not. I am immediately suspicious whenever I hear someone talk about themselves or others having to be honest with themselves. It's a big red light for me. oh, is self-deception preferable to self-honesty? We're definitely polar opposites, 'cause, I say, anyone indifferent to or suspicious of honesty, in these terms, has no business trusting their instincts on existential questions.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2019 12:11:34 GMT
I am immediately suspicious whenever I hear someone talk about themselves or others having to be honest with themselves. It's a big red light for me. oh, is self-deception preferable to self-honesty? We're definitely polar opposites, 'cause, I say, anyone indifferent to or suspicious of honesty, in these terms, has no business trusting their instincts on existential questions. Oh thanks for reminding me. Add self-deception to the list would you.
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