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Post by Figgles on Oct 24, 2018 16:14:32 GMT
Sure, in a given moment, faced with the experience of a charging elephant, most don't even have to think about, running just happens.
That said, there are ramifications to seeing the 'dream-like' nature of all experiential content that extends past an immediate presentation of 'danger' such as that.
Realizing the ephemeral nature of all that arises in experience means not buying into the appearance of things, not buying into the consensus trance views. This has all sorts of implications and ramifications. I've lived the greater part of my life with this knowing/seeing....it means never feeling 'locked into' a particular arising circumstances....never actually being limited/bound in terms of outcome.
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Post by Figgles on Oct 24, 2018 16:27:51 GMT
This demonstrates your misunderstanding about what's being said.
The knowledge that it's all ephemeral, all dream-stuff, if anything, makes appreciation for what appears even more likely. The reason why is that we're no longer 'caught up' in the drama of it all...no longer captivated so deeply by the ongoing story of life, that we fail to see the beauty.
"Ephemeral/Empty of Truth" in no way means, "deadened, ugly, boring, lifeless, dull,".
Upon seeing that it's all just a play of ideas, nothing serious going on, those moments of intense appreciation, acknowledging the beauty, the wonder that 'this' is happening/arising at all, become the norm.
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Post by Figgles on Oct 24, 2018 16:57:22 GMT
How's all this theorizing actually working out for ya Andrew, in terms of your day to day life experience? you hate the world....you stand in opposition/war towards the world systems, you live in constant anger/angst, pointing fingers outwards at all those you feel to be responsible, you see the world to be unbalanced...so much so, that you actually desire for 'another' world, another realm, reality, that somehow exists apart from the one you know.
How does any of this hyper-minding serve you? As I see it, everything you espouse, everything you argue for, only keeps you mired within that dark/dismal perspective.
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Post by Figgles on Oct 24, 2018 17:56:37 GMT
To see that there is but One/nothing is separate does not mean that all distinction has to collapse. Distinction is not in contradiction with 'no separation.'
Why are you 'going to want to collapse the I-you? Is it somehow problematic? So long as it's seen that 'you' arise as a non-separate appearance within the true 'I', there is no duality. Distinction does not need to collapse.
Again, you are conflating Oneness with Sameness. I really don't think you've actually "realized" no separation. Everything you say, everything you argue for, tells me it is just a conceptual understanding....but even in that, it's a faulty conceptual understanding.
Not separate does not mean that all 'distinction' must collapse.
I think the reason you feel the need to keep 'I/you' "on the same level" as you say, is because it causes you mental/emotional distress, both to think that the other might not be as he appears to be, and that he might regard you to be not as you appear to be. For some reason that evokes all sorts of stories in your head about how an egotistical, narcissistic way of interacting/behaving will take over, and you'll be on the losing end of the stick.
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Post by Figgles on Oct 24, 2018 18:06:01 GMT
If he "believes" that, then he's no master. The true master has realized that he doesn't know, and cannot know. And he's at peace with that.
His interest in talking about the Truth is neither dependent upon his knowing himself to be the only one, not is it dependent upon knowing that those apt eyes upon him are actually seeing, nor that those ears on their head are hearing. It's an objectless Love that's the impetus.
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Post by Figgles on Oct 24, 2018 18:42:33 GMT
These different types of knowing hinge upon the ability to 'look and see' what's going on, absent self-referential thought. I honestly don't think you have reference for that absence. I get the sense your inner judge never stops judging, that there is rarely ever a space between one thought 'about' what's happening, what IS, and the next. But no one has been advocating 'setting up a concrete knowing.' The knowing of "I" (True I) as Sifting has aptly coined it, is an entirely different kind of knowing than "concrete material knowledge." The problem here again is, you just don't have an actual reference for it...you are assuming that knowing to be something other than what it actually is and then all the misconstrued argument ensues from there. All that needs to be collapsed (to be free) is the seeming separation between I and you...and that means that ultimately, 'otherness' in any fundamental sense, is also seen through. There is nothing beyond that that 'needs' to collapse. The seeing of Distinction is not the problem....it's only the seeing of actual, fundamental separation that needs to get seen through. And really, you've said yourself that you don't value freedom anyway, so why would you see it as so important that all distinction 'collapses'? Why is this important? Why does this need to happen? So long as it's understood there is but one thingless thing, and that all apparent distinction is arising of that One, why does it matter? Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/4132/world?page=8331#ixzz5UsGeW3arI get the sense Andrew that this is an ego thing. You can't bear the thought that I or anyone else might regard you as a mere 'dream-character'....you find it personally hurtful and that's why you fight so hard to defend this 'equal ground' idea. Obviously, I can't know that for certain. But also I think there is a sense for you that if you can render it all down, where all distinction collapses, then complete immersion within delusion becomes equal in all ways to being free. Thus, what you are really arguing for, is the 'okayness' of an ongoing experience of being limited/bound by circumstance....the okayness of suffering. Essentially, what I see you doing is trying to make peace with the fact that you despise and condemn the world that appears to you. You want to make it okay that you are at war with the world....that all your life choices revolve around resistance to the world, When really, you've got to first make peace with what you see when you look at 'the world.'
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Post by Figgles on Oct 24, 2018 21:14:58 GMT
It really is the difference between seeing the entirety of experiential content as "something very serious goin on" vs. a very realistic sort of dream....a play of unfolding ideas.
I would agree with we all 'interact with' the world as if it has substance, but I would also say that seeing the ephemeral nature of the world means that that interaction is less rigid, less likely to conform to status quo ideas and expectations. Indeed, the physical world appears to have certain limits, but seeing that it's all a play of appearances, illuminates those apparent limits/laws/rules themselves to be mere appearances....ephemeral too in nature, thus, absent the substance that would give them as ideas, all that much 'air time' or influence.
Something very cool seems to happen within experience when those apparent limits/laws/rules get seen to be 'mere appearances' vs. actual. The realm of experiential content seem to expand...stuff you never would have believed possible, becomes commonplace....synchronicity abounds.....laws/rules that seemed previously to be carved in stone, now seem to be quite malleable. Experience itself takes on a fluidity that it did not seem to have previously when it was all taken to be 'substantive/actual.'
I too experience it all to be 'intelligent/benevolent/infinite/' but those are experiential qualities that apply to the totality, vs. actual Truth realization. Truth realizations as I see it, do not tell you things 'about' experiential content, other than if you are experiencing it, it IS arising in experience. (a tautology there for sure).
Really, I don't understand how one could experience life and NOT experience it all to have the quality of 'intelligent/benevolent, etc'. that results in awe, gratitude, wonder, joy, reverence, etc. In fact, I'd say that in the absence of precise answers to all existential questions, there is an even deeper sense of awe than if I felt I had it all sewn up with fixed, pat answers.
Absent fixed ideas about how it all works, what's really going on here, there's just more allowance for all possibilities.
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Post by Figgles on Oct 25, 2018 15:33:58 GMT
The 'underlying unity' played a part in why the ZM asked the question of the tired polo player, but it was actually also about the 'distinction' between what appears and that which it appears to/within. The ZM was actually imo, making the point that even though there is no separation, expressions within Being remain distinct. The goal posts, as they appeared, were not 'tired.' They were fine. Standing there just like they always do....and yet, not in any way 'separate,' And THAT was the point. The ZM was pointing out that appearance/expressions do not take on the arising expression of tiredness. He was indicating that 'tired' is quality and as such, it does NOT apply to Being/that which you "really" are. Tired is itself 'an arising appearance' and not to be conflated with that which is foundational, that which is absent quality/property. The ZM was making the same point I have been making. Just because you are tired, does not mean the entire cosmos is tired. The one who sees that the entire cosmos is just appearance, just an expression within Being, also understands that his seeing of the quality of 'life/presence' as it applies to the cosmos and all thingness within that, is also itself 'an arising expression', that anything we think we know about thingness, is itself of the realm of thingness. I would say one who is still hanging on to this one belief that the qualities he assigns to the cosmos are 'realizations' vs. arising content, still has an SVP in play to some degree, however small, hanging by a thread as it may be. The presence of the sense of a separate person rides along on the coat-tails of the absolute knowing pertaining to the material world. When the SVP is no longer in play at all, absolute knowledge about the material world/thingness, is also no longer in play. We no longer assign 'tiredness' to a goal post, just because we are experiencing tiredeness. Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/4132/world?page=8336#ixzz5UxLvFEXG
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Post by Figgles on Oct 25, 2018 15:46:16 GMT
I've never said that the story 'has no impact.' So long as you remain engaged and you continue to care, of course there will be some impact. It's all about 'the degree' of that impact.
I saw that I wasn't going to be able to express myself as freely as I like to express, so I calmly moved on. There's no issue in play here. It's all good. There's some quality dialogue happening, I get to respond as I see fit, and there is no problem in any that.
Now, if I left ST in huff, developed a migraine headache over the stress of it all, bellyached to my hubby and was mean to the dog because of it all, then you could say that life's circumstances got the best of me.
It's not as though post SR folks stop responding emotionally or with feeling to the happenings of life, it's just that life no longer has them by the short & curlies. There is space there, to look at it all from a more dispassionate view. In that space, reactions are no longer "knee-jerk" but rather, reasoned responses, absent the idea that life 'should' be unfolding in a particular way.
It's absolute fine what happened there with Reefs. I calmly made a decision to leave that forum and come here. I like the overall climate of freedom to say whatever the heck I want here, much better.
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Post by Figgles on Oct 25, 2018 23:07:33 GMT
What I find interesting ZD, is that you required an intensely special, out of the ordinary, mystical experience to arrive at that. Isn't everyday life lived with the clarity of SR enough for feelings of 'reverence' to arise towards the entirety of it?
I don't understand why you think one must know 'for certain' beyond question, that each appearing thing is alive/perceiving/experiencing for that to be the case. Life, even in it's most ordinary moments, is pretty freakin' profoundly amazing when you look at it.
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